Le Grand Dauphin survives

Louis, Le Grand Dauphin was the oldest son of King Louis XIV of France, he was born in 1661 and died in April 1711. He was the father of Philip V of Spain and grandfather of Louis XV.

A question, what might have happened had he survived through whatever ailed him and killed him in otl to succeed his father as King?

Furthermore, how might things have turned out for France had his son Le Petit Dauphin not died of measles in 1712 and become the Dauphin following his father's ascesion as King
 
Not a lot I suspect. He would have been in his mid fifties by the time his father died so chances are his reign wouldn't have been a particularly long one. Also, he doesn't seem to have been a very dynamic personality so probably wouldn't have tried to change the status quo.

If his son had survived measles to be King things might well have been rather different. I think Bourgoyne was quite forward thinking and might well have tried to implement a gradual change as to how France was run. For a start he might have tried to reduce the etiquette and ceremony at Versailles and might even have decided to move the Court's base back to Paris at some point, perhaps realising that to be a good King it's important not to be too isolate from one's subjects.

I'll have to think more about this. A very intriguing possibility though!
 
Not a lot I suspect. He would have been in his mid fifties by the time his father died so chances are his reign wouldn't have been a particularly long one. Also, he doesn't seem to have been a very dynamic personality so probably wouldn't have tried to change the status quo.

If his son had survived measles to be King things might well have been rather different. I think Bourgoyne was quite forward thinking and might well have tried to implement a gradual change as to how France was run. For a start he might have tried to reduce the etiquette and ceremony at Versailles and might even have decided to move the Court's base back to Paris at some point, perhaps realising that to be a good King it's important not to be too isolate from one's subjects.

I'll have to think more about this. A very intriguing possibility though!

Okay interesting, with Le Grand Dauphin as King followed by his son, how might relations go with Spain, and possibly with England? Especially if Britain is by that point ruled by James III and VIII, but that's another matter aha.

Also I can see where you are coming from with Burgundy, could some of the changes he'd bring about mean a less violent revolution, or perhaps an avoidance of the revolution altogether? Or is that too far down the line to tell?
 
That would be interesting - the king of France would be the father of the king of Spain. Would this butterfly away the War of the Quadruple Alliance?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Okay interesting, with Le Grand Dauphin as King followed by his son, how might relations go with Spain, and possibly with England?

Well Philip V of Spain would be the former's son and the latter's brother so that changes Franco-Spanish relations a bit. I don't know what the relationship was like between Philippe d'Anjou and the Petit Dauphin but I have to assume it was better than OTL between Philippe and Orleans. It almost certainly butterflys away the War of the Quadruple Alliance. It's also likely that with more mainline Bourbons around, especially an adult King, then Philip is less likely to abdicate like he did OTL. There's much less likelihood of him succeeding to the French throne and he hasn't just lost of war so he probably stays in power through the 1720s. Its also possible that the renunciations incorporated into the Peace of Utrecht might not be so stringent as, again, there is less likelihood of him uniting France and Spain.

On the English side I suppose a different King might possibly handle the Rising of 1715 differently, though by the time Louis XIV died it was mostly over so I don't know that there's much change on that front. But if France and Spain stay buddy buddy then there isn't likely any Austro-Spanish alliance like OTL. So while that could possibly affect the marriage of Maria Theresa (who OTL was briefly engaged to Don Carlos, the future Charles III of Spain) more immediately it increases the chance of a Franco-Spanish war against England that could see a joint Bourbon campaign against Gibraltar and/or Minorca in the 1720s and possibly support for another Jacobite rising.

It would also likely mean a different marriage for OTL Louis XV TTL's new Dauphin as there is less pressure to marry him quickly or to pick an older wife who is prepared to pop out an heir. So without Marie Leszczynska France could change the politics of an eventual Polish Succession War, perhaps making the Franco-Saxon alliance that Austria so feared a reality. So if a Bourbon alliance engages in a war with Britain in the mid 1720s and forms a hostile bloc leading into the 1730s there is more chance that Britain may intervene in the War of the Polish Succession on the Austrian side. With British support in the Mediterranean Austria may be able to retain Naples and Sicily (though with Parma and Tuscany to Don Carlos). But that's extrapolating quite a bit. Though it would be fun to see a quasi-British-client Habsburg-Lorraine secundogeniture in Naples, and Tuscan Bourbons living in the Palazzo Pitti in Florence.
 
chateauroux said:
He would have been in his mid fifties by the time his father died so chances are his reign wouldn't have been a particularly long one.
Le Grand Dauphin was born in 1661 and his father The Sun King died in 1715: he would thus be 52 years old upon his father's death. As for his potential lifespan, remember that Louis XIV died four days before his 77th birthday while OTL Louis XV (the Grand Dauphin's grandson) died at the age of 64. If the Grand Dauphin became an ATL King Louis XV of France, it's still possible that he could reign at least 10 years. Which seems pretty average in terms of rulership length, even if a bit short.
chateauroux said:
Also, he doesn't seem to have been a very dynamic personality so probably wouldn't have tried to change the status quo.
That is actually debatable as while he wasn't very active, he still had an entourage, made notably around two of his half sisters, and that entourage notably opposed the policies advocated by his son, The Petit Dauphin. The Grand Dauphin was also opposed to the removal of the Edict of Nantes when Louis XIV proclaimed it: that doesn't mean he will repel the ban it but it does show that he wouldn't be the same King his father was, so he might not like the satus quo.
chateauroux said:
If his son had survived measles to be King things might well have been rather different. I think Bourgoyne was quite forward thinking and might well have tried to implement a gradual change as to how France was run. For a start he might have tried to reduce the etiquette and ceremony at Versailles and might even have decided to move the Court's base back to Paris at some point, perhaps realising that to be a good King it's important not to be too isolate from one's subjects.
The Petit Dauphin was mostly influenced by the dévots, who were opponents to the Absolute Monarchy that Louis XIV had created. They wanted a less centralized monarchy controlled by the Aristocracy: the provinces would have more power and there were to be intermediary councils between them and the King. These councils would be only made of Aristocrats because they were perceived by the dévots as the only ones qualified to serve as intermediary between the King and his people. Part of their ideas were tried by the Regent OTL in the form of the polysinodie which was basically several councils assisting the King. It proved however deeply ineffective (because of the people who made them) and was abandonned in 1718.

That system doesn't really look to me as "forward thinking", except maybe in the idea that the government shouldn't be as Centralised and Absolute as it was. But it limits the governmental position to only the high nobility: it's more restricted and less inclusive than the system Louis XIV put in place. It doesn't make the King closer to its people from my POV, it creates an even greater distance. Granted, it's possible that the Petit Dauphin might realise the need to include more than just the aristocracy in the long run but nothing guarantees it. I also don't really see how that would push the Dauphin to loosen and reduce the Etiquette and Ceremonies: if anything, that might actually push for more Etiquette.

The return to Paris is a likely possibility but not necessarilly because it would have the King be closer to its people. Versailles was primarily a symbol of Absolutism and Louis XIV's power, as well as the result of the latter's childhood: Louis XIV had been traumatized by his flight to Saint Germain during the Fronde and always was weary of Paris as a result. And the decision wasn't completely bad too as Paris as a high tendency to oppose the central government historically: let's not forget Paris was the center of the Ligue during the Religious Wars, and the capital had already supported the English during the Hundread Years War (at least the University of Paris did: that's why the Kings of France traditionnally chose their physician from the University of Montpellier). Coming back to Paris would thus simply a symbol to show that things would change and that the ways of the Sun King were abandonned. It would mean nothing in regards to a will to get closer to the people.

In other words, the Petit Dauphin would likely have been an extremly conservative ruler.
 
Well Philip V of Spain would be the former's son and the latter's brother so that changes Franco-Spanish relations a bit. I don't know what the relationship was like between Philippe d'Anjou and the Petit Dauphin but I have to assume it was better than OTL between Philippe and Orleans. It almost certainly butterflys away the War of the Quadruple Alliance. It's also likely that with more mainline Bourbons around, especially an adult King, then Philip is less likely to abdicate like he did OTL. There's much less likelihood of him succeeding to the French throne and he hasn't just lost of war so he probably stays in power through the 1720s. Its also possible that the renunciations incorporated into the Peace of Utrecht might not be so stringent as, again, there is less likelihood of him uniting France and Spain.

On the English side I suppose a different King might possibly handle the Rising of 1715 differently, though by the time Louis XIV died it was mostly over so I don't know that there's much change on that front. But if France and Spain stay buddy buddy then there isn't likely any Austro-Spanish alliance like OTL. So while that could possibly affect the marriage of Maria Theresa (who OTL was briefly engaged to Don Carlos, the future Charles III of Spain) more immediately it increases the chance of a Franco-Spanish war against England that could see a joint Bourbon campaign against Gibraltar and/or Minorca in the 1720s and possibly support for another Jacobite rising.

It would also likely mean a different marriage for OTL Louis XV TTL's new Dauphin as there is less pressure to marry him quickly or to pick an older wife who is prepared to pop out an heir. So without Marie Leszczynska France could change the politics of an eventual Polish Succession War, perhaps making the Franco-Saxon alliance that Austria so feared a reality. So if a Bourbon alliance engages in a war with Britain in the mid 1720s and forms a hostile bloc leading into the 1730s there is more chance that Britain may intervene in the War of the Polish Succession on the Austrian side. With British support in the Mediterranean Austria may be able to retain Naples and Sicily (though with Parma and Tuscany to Don Carlos). But that's extrapolating quite a bit. Though it would be fun to see a quasi-British-client Habsburg-Lorraine secundogeniture in Naples, and Tuscan Bourbons living in the Palazzo Pitti in Florence.

Interesting, so it is likely that things within France are a bit more stable themselves, and that it and Spain might well make a powerful alliance block against Hannoverian Britain-for however long that lasts- interesting.


Le Grand Dauphin was born in 1661 and his father The Sun King died in 1715: he would thus be 52 years old upon his father's death. As for his potential lifespan, remember that Louis XIV died four days before his 77th birthday while OTL Louis XV (the Grand Dauphin's grandson) died at the age of 64. If the Grand Dauphin became an ATL King Louis XV of France, it's still possible that he could reign at least 10 years. Which seems pretty average in terms of rulership length, even if a bit short.
That is actually debatable as while he wasn't very active, he still had an entourage, made notably around two of his half sisters, and that entourage notably opposed the policies advocated by his son, The Petit Dauphin. The Grand Dauphin was also opposed to the removal of the Edict of Nantes when Louis XIV proclaimed it: that doesn't mean he will repel the ban it but it does show that he wouldn't be the same King his father was, so he might not like the satus quo.
The Petit Dauphin was mostly influenced by the dévots, who were opponents to the Absolute Monarchy that Louis XIV had created. They wanted a less centralized monarchy controlled by the Aristocracy: the provinces would have more power and there were to be intermediary councils between them and the King. These councils would be only made of Aristocrats because they were perceived by the dévots as the only ones qualified to serve as intermediary between the King and his people. Part of their ideas were tried by the Regent OTL in the form of the polysinodie which was basically several councils assisting the King. It proved however deeply ineffective (because of the people who made them) and was abandonned in 1718.

That system doesn't really look to me as "forward thinking", except maybe in the idea that the government shouldn't be as Centralised and Absolute as it was. But it limits the governmental position to only the high nobility: it's more restricted and less inclusive than the system Louis XIV put in place. It doesn't make the King closer to its people from my POV, it creates an even greater distance. Granted, it's possible that the Petit Dauphin might realise the need to include more than just the aristocracy in the long run but nothing guarantees it. I also don't really see how that would push the Dauphin to loosen and reduce the Etiquette and Ceremonies: if anything, that might actually push for more Etiquette.

The return to Paris is a likely possibility but not necessarilly because it would have the King be closer to its people. Versailles was primarily a symbol of Absolutism and Louis XIV's power, as well as the result of the latter's childhood: Louis XIV had been traumatized by his flight to Saint Germain during the Fronde and always was weary of Paris as a result. And the decision wasn't completely bad too as Paris as a high tendency to oppose the central government historically: let's not forget Paris was the center of the Ligue during the Religious Wars, and the capital had already supported the English during the Hundread Years War (at least the University of Paris did: that's why the Kings of France traditionnally chose their physician from the University of Montpellier). Coming back to Paris would thus simply a symbol to show that things would change and that the ways of the Sun King were abandonned. It would mean nothing in regards to a will to get closer to the people.

In other words, the Petit Dauphin would likely have been an extremly conservative ruler.

Okay so a conservative monarchy being maintained for fear of losing the power the sun king had? Interesting
 
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