LBJ without Vietnam?

Providing LBJ had assumed the presidency in the same way as historically, how would his presidency have gone without escalation in Vietnam? (I'm not sure how plausible this is. I've read that his decision to escalate was largely down to him being inexperienced in foreign policy and influenced by his advisers, who were all for a greater US role).

Would we have seen a larger and longer-lasting Great Society? Would the New Deal coalition have lasted longer?
 
Providing LBJ had assumed the presidency in the same way as historically, how would his presidency have gone without escalation in Vietnam? (I'm not sure how plausible this is. I've read that his decision to escalate was largely down to him being inexperienced in foreign policy and influenced by his advisers, who were all for a greater US role).

Would we have seen a larger and longer-lasting Great Society? Would the New Deal coalition have lasted longer?

Yes to both questions. LBJ's stature in general would be considerably greater.
 

Gaius Julius Magnus

Gone Fishin'
He'd be seen as an qualified great, probably around the rung of Presidents, who were seen as good or near-great but lacked the crisis the above three (Washington, Lincoln, and FDR) had to be seen as "the best" (Truman, Eisenhower, and Theodore Roosevelt)
 
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He would have been one of the best Presidents ever in domestic policy. No question about it.

I'm also interested about how youth counterculture would have turned out without its cause célèbre (or, for that matter, whether it would have happened at all. I'm not well-versed in the culture of the '60s). It has to be anti-establishment by definition, but here it has to find another target. Racism, perhaps?
 
He runs and wins in 1968, becoming the longest serving president after FDR

He becomes one of the best ranked, maybe either 4th or 5th best

He could try to get Universal Health Care

And Robert Kennedy won't try to run in 1968, so he lives to be President another day!!!!!!

And without the Youth counterculture/hippies, America won't get the Liberal backlash and is no Far Right consertive movement that takes over in the 80s
 
I'm also interested about how youth counterculture would have turned out without its cause célèbre (or, for that matter, whether it would have happened at all. I'm not well-versed in the culture of the '60s). It has to be anti-establishment by definition, but here it has to find another target. Racism, perhaps?

It might turn out to be similar to that of Britain and other western countries that didn't experience any major conflicts during that period. There may well be more association with the civil rights struggle here.
 

Realpolitik

Banned
I'm also interested about how youth counterculture would have turned out without its cause célèbre (or, for that matter, whether it would have happened at all. I'm not well-versed in the culture of the '60s). It has to be anti-establishment by definition, but here it has to find another target. Racism, perhaps?


It's still happening. Look at France and West Germany and Britain, countries not affected by Vietnam. It's possible that it might be a little less militant, but I feel as though it will be coming.
 
It's still happening. Look at France and West Germany and Britain, countries not affected by Vietnam. It's possible that it might be a little less militant, but I feel as though it will be coming.

It might have better relations with labor as well. There's still gonna be an economic crisis in the 70s and labor is still going to get the hell kicked out of it...no Vietnam really changes the complexion of the New Left and counterculture, inevitable as something like it is.
 
Another thing is that there was a strong feeling of malaise among many Americans during the '60s and '70s (not only due to the economic troubles of the latter decade) – a sense that society as they had known it was rapidly falling apart, and that things were changing in unfamiliar ways - civil rights, Vietnam, and the student movement all fueled what was generally perceived as chaos, and the Democratic Party was perceived to be at the center of much of it.

It was this that fueled much of the Republican Party's rise to power in the subsequent decades. ITTL, things will be different, and the Democrats likely won't become the party of 'amnesty, abortion and acid', but rather remain something much closer to what they had been before.
 
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Another thing is that there was a strong feeling of malaise among many Americans during the '60s and '70s (not only due to the economic troubles of the latter decade) – a sense that society as they had known it was rapidly falling apart, and that things were changing in unfamiliar ways - civil rights, Vietnam, and the student movement all fueled what was generally perceived as chaos, and the Democratic Party was perceived to be at the center of much of it.

It was this that fueled much of the Republican Party's rise to power in the subsequent decades. ITTL, things will be different, and the Democrats likely won't become the party of 'amnesty, abortion and acid', but rather remain something much closer to what they had been before.

Doubt it.

The New Deal coalition is breaking apart and come oil embargo (or whatever sparks of the 70s crash ITTL) its going to burst into flames.
 
I'm not sure if it would necessarily *break apart* so much as shrink as the 70s give rise to economic reaction and the need to break labor at the wheel. Whatever the New Left looks like without Vietnam, it'll still be somewhat weird and alienating to most Americans, but not quite so scary. Won't be as militant for sure. MLK might have more political traction and may live longer, his opposition to Vietnam cost him dear support, his approval rating before among Americans were more positive than not. His anti-poverty crusade might get serious traction before the crises of the 70s render it dead.
 
That being said the left in the US has always been historically weak, and without the incentive to burn draft cards a lot of youth may be far more politically apathetic. Hard to say really. Don't see anything like a McGovern insurgency in the Democrats, though internal reform in the party is still going to happen, the cigar-chompers are on the wane.
 

Realpolitik

Banned
That being said the left in the US has always been historically weak, and without the incentive to burn draft cards a lot of youth may be far more politically apathetic. Hard to say really. Don't see anything like a McGovern insurgency in the Democrats, though internal reform in the party is still going to happen, the cigar-chompers are on the wane.

The student movement will find something else to protest and be alienated about. However, without an anti-war movement gaining traction, it's hard to see a McGovernite insurgency getting started. The cigar chompers might hang on for one more election, perhaps more peaceful protests about that. The New Democrats I still expect to see. New Dealist policies were becoming outdated by the 70s, Vietnam or no.

Vietnam was one piece of the puzzle.
 
The student movement will find something else to protest and be alienated about. However, without an anti-war movement gaining traction, it's hard to see a McGovernite insurgency getting started. The cigar chompers might hang on for one more election, perhaps more peaceful protests about that. The New Democrats I still expect to see. New Dealist policies were becoming outdated by the 70s, Vietnam or no.

Vietnam was one piece of the puzzle.

However, LBJ might be able to pass UHC by then, even an 'American Health Service' (likely just called Medicare), as well as making parts of the War on Poverty permanent.
 

Realpolitik

Banned
However, LBJ might be able to pass UHC by then, even an 'American Health Service' (likely just called Medicare), as well as making parts of the War on Poverty permanent.

With no Vietnam, LBJ will get UHC through with literally no sweat at all. Looking back at it in hindsight, it's painful.

LBJ might also try for an annual guaranteed wage to complement welfare rather than replace it like Nixon wanted.
 

Realpolitik

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IMHO, not to derail anything, but Nixon once said in the Gannon interviews:

"Johnson -- Johnson would have been -- frankly, Johnson would have been much better had he been Johnson. I -- I -- I hear these days, for example, some of the enthusiastic, sincere, ultra-conservative supporters of Reagan say, "Let Reagan be Reagan." Well, the best advice Johnson could have had, "Let Johnson be Johnson", rather than trying to pander to his liberal critics. If Johnson had been Johnson, he would not have had gradual escalation of the war in Vietnam."

"I think it wouldn't be useful to name names of some of the higher-ups, but I would say what we're talking about are people--and they are the most important of all--at the second level in the bureaucracy, in State particularly, a few in Defense, et cetera, who at the beginning went along in this macho business that--"Well, we've got to be strong and hold the line everyplace in the world against Communism," and then, when push came to shove, didn't want to do what was necessary to stop Communist dir--insurrection and revolutionary warfare in Vietnam. And then, when they began to see the media turning against it, they turned, too. And, as a result--let me put it bluntly with regard to Johnson. We sometimes hear today, people say, the conservatives, "Let Reagan be Reagan." Johnson's problem was nobody told him, "Let Johnson be Johnson." If Johnson had been Johnson in Vietnam, he would have finished it before I ever got to be president. And maybe if he'd finished it, I would have never been president. So--who knows?"


After studying him, my conclusion is that LBJ, left to his own devices, wouldn't have gone for the gradual escalation. He either would have stomped the North Vietnamese in the proverbial nuts like the Texan he was (Johnson treatment) or would not have bothered at all, with my inclination for the latter. But he worried about his own legitimacy too much, and felt that his Kennedy holdovers knew better than he did. Johnson was deep down a very, very insecure man with an inferiority complex or two. He wanted desperately to win them over like he was winning everybody else over, the Establishment "technocratic liberals" and thought he could translate his considerable domestic political skills into foreign policy. He knew Vietnam was a loser from the beginning, but felt that he couldn't politically afford to go, and trusted that his advisors were looking out for him, and when things started to go badly, they turned on him... Vietnam, combined with other factors, was the true splintering of classical Eastern liberalism and the New Deal status quo, when you think about it. The results of said fissure in the Democratic Party were the "New Left" like McCarthy or McGovern, or the "New Democrats" like RFK, Carter, and eventually Clinton. The fissure swallowed the man sitting on top who was in many ways the peak of FDR's legacy. Deep down, he was somewhat intimidated and awed by the pedigrees that he could never have. It's ironic in a man who in many ways could have been said to fall because of hubris.

Johnson bungled it, that's true, especially in being a little less than candid with the people. But it's far from being black and white. Lyndon Johnson was as much a casualty of Vietnam as anybody. He died right before the peace agreement was signed in Paris in early 1973, don't forget.
 
Why is there always an assumption there wouldn't be Hippies without Vietnam? You already have the New Left coming out of 1959, the youth culture was focusing on things like social injustice and racial equality, alongside things like the repression in the culture; why does your father wear a suit and tie? Why is he terrified to talk about his emotions? What can I do to improve as a human being? And so forth. It was a generational change looking outward and inward, and tackling everything and challenging the old order. It was allowed because of a generation of peace, and because their parents generation had no youth, which was stolen by Depression and War, and come the 50s they ducked their heads in the sand and expected things to all be one way and for no one to go outside that box of expectations. The youth response was that was that I'm not going to be the role you defined for me, and that could be said of everything from youth to women to black Americans in that period. That's probably the defining social idea of the era.

So yes, there is going to be a youth culture, there are going to be Hippies. I would just argue that it would not go the route of extreme militancy, and would veer closer to flower power. Bear in mind, the Summer of Love was shockingly short; by 1968, the world fell apart. And it was Vietnam that did it in; the war was bad enough in itself and militarized the New Left. And in my opinion, I hate that; I hate the fact that people waved the Vietcong flag when the North Vietnamese and Vietcong guerrillas were just as brutal and corrupt as the Southern government. The assumption should have been that both sides were bad, but unfortunately that isn't how the human mind works as we always make things only two sides, and unfortunately this was an era when the thinking was oppressed that as such it lent to thinking of the Vietnamese Communists as having to be the good guys as if it was as simple as good guys and bad guys and the old guard was just on the wrong side. The New Left may have rebelled against a culture that thought a certain way, but they still thought somewhat in that mode of thought; the oppressed always exist within the terms of their oppressors. The optimum would have been just to avoid Vietnam altogether, because it forced us to deal with moral ambiguity in a way we were not equipped to deal with.

Without Vietnam, maybe the Summer of Love vibe continues on for a while longer. The thing is, why Vietnam further militarized other areas is things like draining funding that could have gone into social programs, a perception that Americans of color and lower economic standing were being sent to fight the war, etc. The thing to possibly get militarized about instead would be Civil Rights and where racial equality and racial coexistence was meeting resistance and even a feeling of it faltering, and even that, if there were militarization, would be less than the OTL.
 

Realpolitik

Banned
Why is there always an assumption there wouldn't be Hippies without Vietnam? You already have the New Left coming out of 1959, the youth culture was focusing on things like social injustice and racial equality, alongside things like the repression in the culture; why does your father wear a suit and tie? Why is he terrified to talk about his emotions? What can I do to improve as a human being? And so forth. It was a generational change looking outward and inward, and tackling everything and challenging the old order. It was allowed because of a generation of peace, and because their parents generation had no youth, which was stolen by Depression and War, and come the 50s they ducked their heads in the sand and expected things to all be one way and for no one to go outside that box of expectations. The youth response was that was that I'm not going to be the role you defined for me, and that could be said of everything from youth to women to black Americans in that period. That's probably the defining social idea of the era.

So yes, there is going to be a youth culture, there are going to be Hippies. I would just argue that it would not go the route of extreme militancy, and would veer closer to flower power. Bear in mind, the Summer of Love was shockingly short; by 1968, the world fell apart. And it was Vietnam that did it in; the war was bad enough in itself and militarized the New Left. And in my opinion, I hate that; I hate the fact that people waved the Vietcong flag when the North Vietnamese and Vietcong guerrillas were just as brutal and corrupt as the Southern government. The assumption should have been that both sides were bad, but unfortunately that isn't how the human mind works as we always make things only two sides, and unfortunately this was an era when the thinking was oppressed that as such it lent to thinking of the Vietnamese Communists as having to be the good guys as if it was as simple as good guys and bad guys and the old guard was just on the wrong side. The New Left may have rebelled against a culture that thought a certain way, but they still thought somewhat in that mode of thought; the oppressed always exist within the terms of their oppressors.T The optimum would have been just to avoid Vietnam altogether, because it forced us to deal with moral ambiguity in a way we were not equipped to deal with.

Without Vietnam, maybe the Summer of Love vibe continues on for a while longer. The thing is, why Vietnam further militarized other areas is things like draining funding that could have gone into social programs, a perception that Americans of color and lower economic standing were being sent to fight the war, etc. The thing to possibly get militarized about instead would be Civil Rights and where racial equality and racial coexistence was meeting resistance and even a feeling of it faltering, and even that, if there were militarization, would be less than the OTL.

I agree. As I've said, there probably would still be a protest movement and the hippies. Possibly less militant, if any change at all. But no question they are still there. The new generation.

This wasn't a problem at the basic levels of society-even in top levels of government, we suffered from Manichean thinking. Both the pro-war and anti-war crowd.
 
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To wade in with my slight obsession, no Vietnam presumably means more money for space as well as social programs. We might get Apollo 18, at least.
 
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