LB-30 in French Service?

I dont usually do WWII threads, but here is a exception.

On this web site describing the B24 history...

http://www.aviation-history.com/consolidated/b24.html

..there is a mention of French interest in this aircraft. A provisional order for 120 aircraft was placed with Consolidated Aircraft in the autum of 1939. Further orders were discussed for delivery sometime in late 1940 & 1941.

With a PoD of May/June 1940 France survives the German offensive & the battle front is stalemated into 1941. How does the later 1940 battle experience with the early B24, or LB-30 in French service affect the development of later B24 models and heavy bombers in general?
 
Well, very likely they would end up with self sealing tanks and armor plate.
Unsure if they would go for the turbocharged R-1830, or if they would insist on the Wright R-1820, since more of their existing C&C aircraft used that engine, and with two stage superchargers.
 
Given the vulnerability of bombers to fighters I'd think they'd give guns a try. They might also be developing it as a night bomber, or searching for daylight tactics to cut losses.
 
Self sealing tanks and armor plate no doubt. Also wondering if the wings might be reinforced.

Then it really wouldn't be the Davis Wing anymore. Fewer spars for larger fuel tanks, between the leading edge and trailing edge spars, 3000 gallon capacity
B-17s had them much closer together, and heavier ribs.

Heavier metal could be used, like Douglas built B-17s had stronger wing structures than what Vega or Boeing built versions had.
 
Heavier metal could be used, like Douglas built B-17s had stronger wing structures than what Vega or Boeing built versions had.

Some more info on this, please. Since heavier structure results in reduced payload/range and performance, one would expect some feedback on this, since Douglas-built B-17s couldn't keep up with the others in formation.
 
..there is a mention of French interest in this aircraft. A provisional order for 120 aircraft was placed with Consolidated Aircraft in the autum of 1939. Further orders were discussed for delivery sometime in late 1940 & 1941.

With a PoD of May/June 1940 France survives the German offensive & the battle front is stalemated into 1941. How does the later 1940 battle experience with the early B24, or LB-30 in French service affect the development of later B24 models and heavy bombers in general?

That's quite a POD, and requires a better French effort and a weaker German one. I'd imagine the French having more success, and the Germans more failures. Liberator production was only a trickle in 1941, nothing in 1940, and lessons learned would be skewed as was B-17 experience with the RAF. However, the French had the LeO and Amiot bombers which were suitable to their needs from which to glean combat lessons in bomber equipment and tactics. One lesson in bomber defense was the value of the escort fighter. Another was the importance of a good escort fighter, and yet another lesson was the value of a large quantity of well-flown, effective escort fighters.
 
I dont think losing range will be a large issue Staging off French airfields places German Cezch and Polish industrial cities in fairly easy range.

... One lesson in bomber defense was the value of the escort fighter. Another was the importance of a good escort fighter, and yet another lesson was the value of a large quantity of well-flown, effective escort fighters.

They'll have to figure out a escort fighter with sufficient range & altitude. I wonder how far they'ed have developed the P36 & P40?. Tactics is another obstacle. Everyone got that one wrong first time around.
 

Archibald

Banned
In the French Fights On universe (where the French government moves to Algiers past June 1940, and Vichy never exists) the Armée de l'Air has to rebuild around U.S aircrafts, among them those 120 LB-30s... and many more B-24s. They are known as Consolidated model 32.

* Consolidated 32 LB-30MF (B-24 Liberator)
– Contrats n° AF-7 du 04/06/40 et 141 du 15/06/40 : 165 appareils, dont 30 spécialement
adaptés à la reconnaissance maritime.

– Commande de janvier 1941 : 120 avions de type B-24C. Ces avions seront livrés dès
mars 1942. La commande sera accompagnée des habituelles primes d’accélération et
favorisera la montée en puissance de la chaîne de San Diego (-CO) et de la chaîne de
Douglas à Tulsa (-DT).

– Commande de juin 1941 : 200 avions en Prêt-Bail, répartis en 120 B-24D (livrables à
partir de septembre 1942) et 80 avions au standard GR, similaires aux Liberator GR V
des Britanniques.

– Commande de janvier 1942 : 200 avions, livrés à partir de juillet 1943 pour des B-24H.
 
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Shorter distances to targets means less fuel and more bombs. Consider that you can fly from Alsace to Stuttgart in an hour.

As for strengthening wings ..... merely increasing sheet metal thickness would not alter the airfoil away from the original Davis wing. The key to the Davis wing was a shallower, longer curve on the top leading edge. This helped boundary layers remain attached farther aft (30 or 40 percent of chord) reducing drag on the part of the wing that creates the most lift. In that respect, the Davis wing was almost a laminar airfoil section.

Why bother installing extra fuel tanks with shorter distances from french airfields to targets in Germany? Stock Liberators already had considerably longer range than B-17. Liberator's longer range proved valuable during the Battle of the Atlantic when Liberators helped close the Iceland Gap. U-boats feared any airplane patrolling over convoys. The Indian Air Force kept their Liberators on long range, maritime patrol until the 1960s.
 

Deleted member 94680

That's quite a POD, and requires a better French effort and a weaker German one.

Unlikely, also what does it have to do with American bombers? Or is it a follow on POD from the hand-waved "French survive" POD? A ramdom French survival to allow the order for the bombers to be followed up on?

One lesson in bomber defense was the value of the escort fighter. Another was the importance of a good escort fighter, and yet another lesson was the value of a large quantity of well-flown, effective escort fighters.

Yeah, but what about escort fighters?
 
Just Leo said:
Liberator production was only a trickle in 1941, nothing in 1940
Not untrue, but if France is buying, it suggests an increase in production, not unlike the effect on the P-38 might have been.

If it led to more *B-24s (even if they're taken over by Britain), that suggests to me they might have been used by Coastal Command (if ill-equipped for bombing Germany, which I'd guess they would prove).
 
A "trickle" by 1944 comparison could be a 'flood' by 1938 comparison. US production of all types was around 2,200 airframes in 1939. In 1944 production of combat aircraft reached over 105,000 airframes accepted by the Air Corps, Navy, and Coast Guard.

According to the article I linked the US Army ordered 20 B24A & seven YB24. France ordered initially 120 LB-30 & the Brits 164 Liberators. A portion of the French production were delivered to the Brits, but I dont know how many or if the AAC accepted any.

For the Martin MB-167 (300+ ordered) the contract included Martin Aircraft setting up a final assembly facility in Morroco. This included top echelon maintinance services and training services for French ground & aircrew. This was in operation by May 1940. Douglass (DB-7) had been similarly contracted for a facility in Algeria. My guess is the French contracted with Consolidated for a similar service.

Two Hundred & Eleven airframes were a hefty production order for Consolidated in late 1939. At the start of the year fifty airframes would have been a pleasingly large order.
 
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Not untrue, but if France is buying, it suggests an increase in production, not unlike the effect on the P-38 might have been.

If it led to more *B-24s (even if they're taken over by Britain), that suggests to me they might have been used by Coastal Command (if ill-equipped for bombing Germany, which I'd guess they would prove).

The suggestion of increased production is OTL, with 2 Consolidated factories as well as North American, the massive Ford Willow Run plant, and Douglas, the one that reportedly built stronger B-17 wings.(still waiting) The eventual production run wasn't puny.

Initial use of early deliveries of LB-30s to the RAF seem to indicate that they didn't place as significant value on closing the mid-Atlantic gap as they might have.

French experience with the LeO 451 would indicate that they would have to adopt escort fighters. They built a lot of LeOs in a short time, but lost a lot as well. Substituting Libs wouldn't change the loss numbers.
 
...
Initial use of early deliveries of LB-30s to the RAF seem to indicate that they didn't place as significant value on closing the mid-Atlantic gap as they might have.
....

At the time there was not a 'Mid Atlantic Gap. Or more accurately there was no significant submarine activity mid Atlantic. Hughes & Costellos 'The Battle oftheAtlantic' has maps showing the locations of cargo ships & submarines sunk during 1939-40. Those were all clustered close in around the British isles, with the largest numbers on the northern & western approaches. In 1941 enough medium ranged aircraft were provided to make the home waters too dangerous for submarine operations.
 
At the time there was not a 'Mid Atlantic Gap. Or more accurately there was no significant submarine activity mid Atlantic. Hughes & Costellos 'The Battle oftheAtlantic' has maps showing the locations of cargo ships & submarines sunk during 1939-40. Those were all clustered close in around the British isles, with the largest numbers on the northern & western approaches. In 1941 enough medium ranged aircraft were provided to make the home waters too dangerous for submarine operations.

Sorry. I was speaking historically. In 1939-1940, there were no Libs, and in 1941, Libs were used to ferry ferry pilots for the medium ranged aircraft which made the home waters too dangerous for U-boat operations.
 
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