Laurens lives

This one is a bigun

America 1805-1808.


The continued economic growth in America during Laurens first term was an example of not only the robustness of the Federalist economic agenda articulated by the President, Governor Hamilton, Senator Dayton of New Jersey, Senator Clay of Kentucky, and Governor Jackson of Tennessee, but also as a testament to the fertility of the United States, for immigrants it proved to be worth moving. There were few losers during this time, yes there were tensions among slaves and contracted catholic workers in the south, as well as, among catholic immigrants in the north, but on the frontier opportunities abounded.
Meanwhile Washington City saw the return of James Madison to the House of Representatives in 1806. It was there that a majority of the political battles where waged. Madison proved to still be an adroit consensus builder occasionally pulling moderate Federalist westerners to block tariff hikes and similar bills. Madison along with Senator Monroe of Virginia and occasionally Vice President Burr would become known as the Gang of Three. The Gang proved to be an effective partnership but not a friendship, the men where just too different, between the aloof Monroe, shy and retiring Madison and of course the gregarious and charming Burr; most politicos considered Burr to be the most intelligent and Madison to be the most effective and Monroe to just be there, oddly this group (along with key Federalists) was instrumental in seeing through the domestic policies of the Laurens Administration. In this case, the opposition Republicans and the majority Federalists managed to agree. It was when war broke out again in Europe where there was a significant difference of opinion.
Domestically speaking, the Laurens Presidency was helped by boom years at home. Thanks in part to continued droughts in Southern France and Central Spain, which aided the export of foodstuffs from the south, internal improvements which streamlined the transportation of goods, as well as technological innovations helped along by the Laurenstown, New Jersey business incubator. Industrial development spread from there and quickly started to take root in better hubs such as Philadelphia, Baltimore, Boston, and in the south: Hampton Roads, Charleston, and Wilmington, North Carolina; DuPont and Sons would abandon their rifle works in New Jersey and relocate to Delaware in 1807. The DuPont-Henry breech-loading rifle was modeled on a captured Ferguson obtained from the President himself who had witnessed its deadly effectiveness at the Battle of Monmouth Courthouse. The company had been working on it in secret for most of two decades and was finally able to supply it in some quantities by the end of 1810. The DuPont-Henry would not replace the Philadelphia [1] Musket until the Legion appropriations of 1830 when the muzzle-loading rifle was finally phased out. The DuPont-Henry used a paper cartridge, which was not replaced with brass until the 1830s. Industry was moving and the exports where aided by a natural disaster in Europe and responsible state financing
Returning to federal government financing, most revenue came from tariffs and land sales. Land sales began to take off thanks to the huge acquisitions of new territory under President Laurens, most of the Old Northwest Territory, renamed Washington Territory, [2] and was going to be given to freedmen under the Compensated Manumission Act of 1800, but the territorial windfall that befell America during the end of the Planter War in 1804 was considerably larger than the area that was given to freedmen. As a result the concerns over cramming of “proper” Americans were negligible and more of a piece of rhetoric than an actual concern. What exactly did America acquire? That was the question that several expeditions began to answer. The expeditions sent out one, under Colonel Zebulon Pike, and a second under, Captains’ Lewis and Clark (although this was a private expedition mostly funded by the personal largesse of retired Vice President Jefferson), these were the two best known, numerous personal and private expeditions abounded including a Boone expedition to Central Kansas. The Lewis and Clark expedition headed up the Mississippi and Missouri rivers attempting to reach the head waters of the Missouri and the Pacific while the Pike Expedition was intended to define the Southern border with Spanish Mexico and meet up with the naval installation being built in Monterrey Bay and then it would hopefully meet up with the Lewis and Clark expedition somewhere in the north. Pike’s Expedition was also charged with finding an acceptable overland route to California and Monterrey Bay.
The Clark Expedition’s primary focus was scientific charged by its backer Jefferson with bringing back numerous exhibits of plant and animal life, which he would place in a museum to be studied and shown to foreign visitors in Washington City after it was studied in his new University in Charlottesville, Virginia. On this charge the expedition was a success, in terms of defining territory and establishing an American presence it was an utter failure.
The Pike Expedition was successful meeting up with the Naval forces stationed in Monterrey Bay. Newspaper accounts of Pike’s expedition made him out to be a great frontiersman and leader of men. On numerous occasions this proved to be true. He contacted numerous Indian tribes for the first time as well as making contact with Spanish garrisons in Santa Fe and Albuquerque. It proved difficult to find a good way through the mountains in the Southern desert but it was easier to cross further north to the east of Monterrey Bay and then across the plains into Missouri Territory. The success of the surveying trip made it much easier to begin selling land in Texas and in the west generally.
The importance of these two expeditions and the numerous surveying trips lead out later in the 1810s to the 1830s by both Legion and Interior Department Surveyors proved crucial to providing money to the Federal Government when lower tariffs began to have an impact in 1816 and 1817 as well as demonstrating the prestige of the Government by showing it could exercise power in far off places, further cementing the Federal Government in the eyes of the people.
While the Government enjoyed prestige it did not enjoy the soundest of finances. American debt incurred both from the recent wars and the Compensated Manumission Act was becoming burdensome. In 1804, the land sale money from Spanish territories was still far off, but sales in Florida [3] as well as in the remaining Federal lands in Arkansas Territory, Missouri Territory, as well as Illinois, Indiana and Ohio, proved to be helpful along with booming agricultural exports and the exports of timber and whiskey [5]. American debt was a concern in many capital markets and lead to the reduction of some programs throughout Laurens first term. The size of the active regular Legion was reduced [5], but naval spending remained high. Also several Federalist agenda items where shelved or reduced, the two largest examples where curbing spending on Laurenstown (which had begun to show profits and was being sold off to private entities) as well as axing a planned Federal University in Washington City, additionally they expanded some import duties but did continue the relatively low export duties. These policies and the strengthening of Free Trade agreements with Prussia and the favored rates for Russian and French trade helped to diversify the American trade network as well as increase Federal income. Secretary Wolcott predicted that the deficit would end when the last slave was freed in 1830. This proved good enough for the Republican House and the Federalist Senate. The debt issue and the Bank of the United States seemed to be working.
Politics took its normal runs, domestically the country’s wounds seemed to be healing and President Laurens had the country going in the right direction. If there were concerns they were centered in Europe especially with the tensions between France and Spain.
1806 also saw the retirement of John Paul Jones and Anthony Wayne from active service. They both remained key advisors to the President Laurens Jones remaining at the Naval Department and Wayne replacing Thomas Pinckney at War when retired to run for Governor of South Carolina with Laurens’ blessing. The 1806 cabinet looked like this:

President John Laurens
Vice President: Aaron Burr
Secretary of State: Timothy Pickering
Secretary of Treasury: Oliver Wolcott Jr.
Secretary of War: Anthony Wayne
Secretary of Navy: John Paul Jones (Commodore ret.)
Attorney General: William Wirt
Secretary of the Interior: Henry Knox

Ambassador to England: Arnoldus Vanderhorst
Ambassador to France: Edmund Harrison
Ambassador to Russia: John Lowell Jr.
Ambassador to Netherlands: Francis Dana
Ambassador to Spain: Stephen Girard


[1] The Philadelphia Musket is roughly analogous to the Springfield.
[2] Roughly OTL’s Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and the Dakotas north of the Red River. The Northern border is still unsettled at this time but is understood by America to mean the 54th Parallel while in England it means the 50th Parallel.
[3] Florida had originally been considered part of the Yazoo but as a result of political wrangling it was whittled away and the old territories of East and West Florida were condensed into one territory stretching from Louisiana to the Atlantic.
[4] European forests where beginning to go bare thanks to incessant warfare of the last decade. Additionally Whiskey enjoyed a brief period in the French court as being Fashionable and stylish to drink, thanks mostly to Edmund Harrison’s love of strong drink.
[FONT=&quot][5] This decision was painful and was justified to Marshall Wayne as a necessary savings. Certain reforms where enacted that had Legion members attached to state legions if they were invited. This reform allowed for a better-trained state legion, easing the concerns of many governors especially the southern kind, as well as the mind of Marshall Wayne. [/FONT]
 
BUMP!

I just discovered this ATL; very intriguing, consider me subscribed :) Also, in case it wasn't noticed, BUMP!
 
Thanks for the two month old bump :D but I will be moving this to permanent hiatus until probably December when I will reboot from the beginning. Law School keeps me far too busy to even think about regular updates. Additionally, as I go back and read the TL I realized that I wanted to flesh out culture, society, and policy implications of the broad strokes that I have laid out in this TL. The reboot will be hopefully more exhaustive. Thanks to my readers for their readership and if they have any ideas on how to improve this for a reboot I would love to hear them.

When/if people decide to input for the reboot keep in mind that I am planning an expansive mini-tl, while oxymoronic, I am simply interested in covering the OTL First Party system and not much beyond that at the moment, perhaps to 1820 no further then 1828. Any ideas or suggestions would be welcome in the intervening months and will be commented upon albeit infrequently, I would like to be able to launch a reboot sometime in December with infrequent updates.

Comments can include anything from "Awesome", to exhaustive comments on policy, on selection of characters, social implications of a Federalist first party system. Seriously I welcome all comments and will be keeping notes on any editorializing that is made with the intent to attribute it to the author.

Again thanks
GSM
 
Consider me subscribed. Please update this OK? Thanks! :)

The bumps are more of the very title of your thread than its content, that's what I believe. A more catchy and more common name for the thread will make it gather a greater amount of viewers.
 
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Consider me subscribed. Please update this OK? Thanks! :)

The bumps are more of the very title of your thread than its content, that's what I believe. A more catchy and more common name for the thread will make it gather a greater amount of viewers.

Thanks I am still planning on a relaunch. Any title ideas? Or content ideas?
 
Since people not overly familiar with the ARW have no idea who "Laurens" is, you might get a slightly larger draw with something like "Southern Federalism" or summat. If you can identify any ideas or themes beyond "Federalism", feel free to mention those too...even something like "First Federalist System", since that's how you describe it yourself there ;)
 
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Since people not overly familiar with the ACW have no idea who "Laurens" is, you might get a slightly larger draw with something like "Southern Federalism" or summat. If you can identify any ideas or themes beyond "Federalism", feel free to mention those too...even something like "First Federalist System", since that's how you describe it yourself there ;)

I think you mean the ARW not the ACW right? ;)

By the way, Mr. Author, you can make a relaunch into a new thread, while just making an introductory post that you made a first version of it before here. Just make a link to this thread over there.

I'm not sure what the title is. What are your ideas for this TL anyway, A decent Ameriwank. To be honest, having the Federalists in power for decades might even brought the entire Americas into the United States; making the word "America" in the United States of America synonymous to OTL's Americas. Even Jefferson looks into the possibility that Latin America can be incorporated into the "Empire of Liberty". Surely, The Monroe Doctrine was influenced by that. And Hamilton has personal dreams of "imperial glory" and in the HBO mini-series of John Adams; He specifically talks on the eve of the Quasi War of "THIS SIDE OF THE MISSISSIPPI MUST BE OURS!"
ADAMS: You would seize, Spanish Florida and Louisiana....
HAMILTON: And not only those sir! If universal empire is the pursuit of France, why not defeat their purpose better than to detach South America from Spain... (Adams baffled and calculating in his mind....) It's the way that the riches of Mexico and Peru would convey to France.... Let's not forget sir that there are those who would prefer secession to our continued union... (Democratic-Republicans who talks of states' rights which he dislike) And as if they act on their threats... (words close to what he actually said there)... Then we must put the renegades back to our fold... BY FORCE IF NECESSARY!... (something that happened by the time of Lincoln)

Then guess what Adams' reply is.... That's where the shouting match started.... Adams didn't like Hamilton in the first place anyway....

If it's a possibility, Why not start your POD as early as Benedict Arnold. These TL's could help.

United States of the Americas and Oceania
Presidency of Benedict Arnold

You can use the ideas of bringing in Quebec and Nova Scotia as early as 1774 in the USAO timeline, then bring in Benedict Arnold and put him in prominence alongside Washington since he's a sure Federalist; then a Federalist dynasty is insured. The strong nation-state ideal must be put into place first, then we can move in to the ideals of representative government through a Federalist Jackson later. With a country like America, in some way, the synthesis of a strong nation-state and representative democracy will just come along the way.

I don't know if you know of the Strangerverse Ameriwank, I guess you do. But the ideas there are also great. You can make America's presence felt in North Africa and India in some way if you want to.

An Ameriwank doesn't necessarily mean outright annexation of countries to the US, that's why some people in this forum who are disgusted of Ameriwank always thought that our world is "Ameriwank enough, why not more?"....

As for the title, something like.... "Welcome to My America: John Laurens alive? Slaves Freed? Federalist dynasty? North and South united by the Federalist doctrine?" .... you know... America is the key word....
 
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@ Shawn. I like the First Federalist System but "Southern Federalism" is good too. Thanks as always for the feedback.

@Libertad First let me say I appreciate your critiques, it is difficult to get good feedback around here. :). I am not saying I give good feedback, I don't, but when you ask people have a hard time giving it. They simply want the product and don't or can't help make it. Not a problem just the way it is and I am cool with it. I am certainly not trying to start a flame war because I am just as guilty.

With that being said my goal is not to create another ameriwank but simply explore how Federalism would change an early america (for good or ill, you decide). Wanking to me is too easy, you simply indulge Hamilton's gigantic ego and all the people who think he was some great American Satan (a view I do not hold) and boom you conquer Mexico by 1802, people do it all the time.

My interest is far more subtle, what does the 2nd Founding Generation (Hamilton, Madison, Monroe, an undisgraced Burr, ATL Laurens, etc.) look like when Hamilton is there to argue Federalism (he had the clearest conception of his own philosophy, far more so then sycophants like Pickering) on its merits against Madison arguing for Republicanism. This is part of the reason I use Laurens because in life he acted as a check on Hamilton's ego and their friendship and joint intellects possibly could have been to Federalism what Jefferson-Madison was to Republicanism. Among other things, Hamilton proposed a civil service exam, and massive public works, two ideas that didn't enter the discourse until after the ACW in OTL. Basically my point is that my interest is more scholastic then in telling a "good" story. As for readership, I want readers but it is a labor of love not of ego. Besides my first iteration got 22,000+ views so it wasn't all drivel;).

Again Libertad, Thanks for the assistance.
 
@Libertad First let me say I appreciate your critiques, it is difficult to get good feedback around here. :). I am not saying I give good feedback, I don't, but when you ask people have a hard time giving it. They simply want the product and don't or can't help make it. Not a problem just the way it is and I am cool with it. I am certainly not trying to start a flame war because I am just as guilty.

With that being said my goal is not to create another ameriwank but simply explore how Federalism would change an early america (for good or ill, you decide). Wanking to me is too easy, you simply indulge Hamilton's gigantic ego and all the people who think he was some great American Satan (a view I do not hold) and boom you conquer Mexico by 1802, people do it all the time.

My interest is far more subtle, what does the 2nd Founding Generation (Hamilton, Madison, Monroe, an undisgraced Burr, ATL Laurens, etc.) look like when Hamilton is there to argue Federalism (he had the clearest conception of his own philosophy, far more so then sycophants like Pickering) on its merits against Madison arguing for Republicanism. This is part of the reason I use Laurens because in life he acted as a check on Hamilton's ego and their friendship and joint intellects possibly could have been to Federalism what Jefferson-Madison was to Republicanism. Among other things, Hamilton proposed a civil service exam, and massive public works, two ideas that didn't enter the discourse until after the ACW in OTL. Basically my point is that my interest is more scholastic then in telling a "good" story. As for readership, I want readers but it is a labor of love not of ego. Besides my first iteration got 22,000+ views so it wasn't all drivel;).

Again Libertad, Thanks for the assistance.

Well, I also don't share the negative attitudes towards Hamilton that permeated the American political discourse because of the different political environment that OTL has to offer (Jefferson and Jackson being prominent in early America and all that). And I'm not actually looking for a 1802 American Mexico. It's just that there's always a possibility of an Ameriwank with a Federalist America that is pro-expansionistic and strongly nationalistic but also progressive enough to allow a decent inclusion of places other than OTL continental US into the Union. Hamilton is a supporter of Touissant L' Overture for example so there's a possibility of Haiti joining the Union, though not right away. Something like that. Though your European timeline already diverged from our timeline as early as the French Revolution.

I also see it the way you do about the Laurens-Hamilton combination in terms of Federalism opposed to the Jefferson-Madison combination in terms of Democratic-Republicanism. Hamilton is basically alone in OTL in protecting the doctrine and went unchecked in terms of his ego, leading to catastrophic consequences for him.

It's just that for me, it might be fun to have some kind of an ATL Monroe Doctrine that Latin America might be more supportive than apprehensive since they can see America in the different light this time, with the experiments in race relations and all that. It will help more in maintaining its hegemonic position in case that it went that way for your TL, rather than starting to lose it to a "less credible" country for me like you know, the authoritarian China. A democratic China is fine, but this version of China of OTL is not something I'll want to see have its way. Hehehehe.
 
BUMP

Whether it end up being wank or not, I think another go at this TL would be a worthwhile undertaking, for sure. Good luck with the reboot, I'll be subscribed for certain :)

@Libertad, perhaps a greater level of inclusionism could win favors with the leaders of yet-to-appear revolutionary movements in Latin America; possibly with their future membership within the USA (in part or total) due not to conquest, but ever-tightening relations. Or then again, there's always just staying on good terms and holding up the Monroe Doctrine, either way works for me if the TL is interesting enough :)
 
Someone has to front cash for it. The new immigrant is presumably not flush with cash. The plantation owner probably can't front them. That leaves the North as a policy matter. I can imagine the North adopting a policy like this in the states that just rebelled - wanting to leaven the disloyal states with new citizens who feel positive about the national government - but on top of manumission, this is a lot of northern money being used to conduct social experiments in the South. I would expect a backlash of northerners unwilling to pay for this.

I wonder if you could bundle it with the manumission lottery? Bad news is, you lose your slaves. Good news is, you get new European tenants to replace them. You have to let the tenants stay on until your bonds vest in 5 years. Well, some people would regard that as bad news-bad news I suppose. Hm.

Eventual ownership within the South seems like a stretch even for this Federalist USA. Compelling someone to sell their land to another private citizen is not eminent domain - the land isn't being taken for "public use" except in the most absurd of senses.

What's your say about this my friend? You didn't made a reply to this. So there's no selling of someone's land to someone else? So the immigrants will just replace the slaves? What will happen? I'm very curious to this.

He suggested an early advent of share cropping, with poor whites as share croppers. The immigrants could just join them. Bad news is, there would be no diversification in southern agriculture for long. I really don't understand this argument though in terms of losing your slaves but the good news of having the immigrants replace them. What's with the loss of slaves?

Care to make a detailed explanation of the whole process of gradual compensated manumission? At least again? Hehehehe.
 
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BUMP

Whether it end up being wank or not, I think another go at this TL would be a worthwhile undertaking, for sure. Good luck with the reboot, I'll be subscribed for certain :)

@Libertad, perhaps a greater level of inclusionism could win favors with the leaders of yet-to-appear revolutionary movements in Latin America; possibly with their future membership within the USA (in part or total) due not to conquest, but ever-tightening relations. Or then again, there's always just staying on good terms and holding up the Monroe Doctrine, either way works for me if the TL is interesting enough :)

I agree. I don't care if this is going to be a super Ameriwank by plausible levels or not. It's just fine by me.

However, I don't know about this "greater level of inclusionism" being possible? Pan-Americanism rising out of Federalist leaders? Latin American Libertadores attracted by the American system? A proto Pan-American EU as an integration way of Latin America to the United States? North American support to South American independence movements? The USAO timeline provides a basis.
 
Well obviously we don't wanna ape anyone else's work; the difference here is perhaps a much smaller level of that inclusionism (and think less EU and more England + Scotland= UK...yeah, I know it's a busted analogy but it's the closest I can think of). Essentially, if we go any further than the Caribbean, we're doing it wrong. And IMHO Mexico should remain independent, and perhaps simply reserved as a very staunch ally guarding our southern border.
 
What's your say about this my friend? You didn't made a reply to this. So there's no selling of someone's land to someone else? So the immigrants will just replace the slaves? What will happen? I'm very curious to this.

He suggested an early advent of share cropping, with poor whites as share croppers. The immigrants could just join them. Bad news is, there would be no diversification in southern agriculture for long. I really don't understand this argument though in terms of losing your slaves but the good news of having the immigrants replace them. What's with the loss of slaves?

Care to make a detailed explanation of the whole process of gradual compensated manumission? At least again? Hehehehe.

Busted :D. I did not answer because I did not have answer to the question. :mad:. I admit I ran into a roadblock when I was trying to square the CMA (Compensated Manumission Act) with Due Process. That is how you get the adjudicated claims and hence compensation. That more speaks to Shawn's point and it was a plot hole that frustrated me and prompted the re-write in the first place.

CMA roughly worked like this: Southern landowners are compensated by secured treasuries to payable at a date in the future (I forget the exact date I believe it started 1830 to end in 1860), manumission would stretch a full generation until 1830, with that IIRC correct 1/1/1830 being the final deadline for manumission. Southern landowners get their day in court and they can get the injunctive relief (i.e. slaves are still property) if they prove hardship and necessity and some did, and will still be compensated come 1830. For those that took the deal, slaves were purchased from their owners with treasuries and worked for ten years in a public works program which ended in freedom and compensation in territory in the "Washington Territory" (MN, Wisconsin, UP of Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and some the OTL Dakotas). The issue of voting rights was relegated to the states, when they formed in which the freedmen would reside in (I think you can figure out how that goes). The ideal effect would have been to create a new moneyed class in the south, continued adherence to jurisprudence, and the removal of the moral blight (to say the least) that was the continuation of slavery after 1776. In this TL's reality, it was far grimier with some continued discrimination and still brutal and repressive sharecropping system of OTL's Reconstruction albeit with slightly different actors and a much more diverse class of sharecroppers.

I think the effect will be as such, I brought the Cotton Gin along (a couple of years later then OTL) as an attempt to make the cotton economy profitable (albeit greatly decreased) and as a stop gap measure until I could get the industrial revolution and the Georgia Gold Rush (teasers) into the mix. The truth is that the South in this TL have as in OTL the much smaller financial position they had but will be comparably influential for at least the near term. The poor immigrants will go to the South and will be of Spanish, French, German, Irish (read Catholic) origin. The richer immigrants (also French, Spanish) will gravitate to New York and Philadelphia and the "Washington Territory" as an attempt to set themselves up in proper style. While there will be some interchange that will be the effect, in essence, one feudal lord for another and the return, to a degree, of the indentured servitude of the 18th century, at least until the labor market stabilizes in the 1830s.

Hope that helps. I believe a lot of the original text is in the middle of the TL.
 
Busted :D. I did not answer because I did not have answer to the question. :mad:. I admit I ran into a roadblock when I was trying to square the CMA (Compensated Manumission Act) with Due Process. That is how you get the adjudicated claims and hence compensation. That more speaks to Shawn's point and it was a plot hole that frustrated me and prompted the re-write in the first place.

CMA roughly worked like this: Southern landowners are compensated by secured treasuries to payable at a date in the future (I forget the exact date I believe it started 1830 to end in 1860), manumission would stretch a full generation until 1830, with that IIRC correct 1/1/1830 being the final deadline for manumission. Southern landowners get their day in court and they can get the injunctive relief (i.e. slaves are still property) if they prove hardship and necessity and some did, and will still be compensated come 1830. For those that took the deal, slaves were purchased from their owners with treasuries and worked for ten years in a public works program which ended in freedom and compensation in territory in the "Washington Territory" (MN, Wisconsin, UP of Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, and some the OTL Dakotas). The issue of voting rights was relegated to the states, when they formed in which the freedmen would reside in (I think you can figure out how that goes). The ideal effect would have been to create a new moneyed class in the south, continued adherence to jurisprudence, and the removal of the moral blight (to say the least) that was the continuation of slavery after 1776. In this TL's reality, it was far grimier with some continued discrimination and still brutal and repressive sharecropping system of OTL's Reconstruction albeit with slightly different actors and a much more diverse class of sharecroppers.

I think the effect will be as such, I brought the Cotton Gin along (a couple of years later then OTL) as an attempt to make the cotton economy profitable (albeit greatly decreased) and as a stop gap measure until I could get the industrial revolution and the Georgia Gold Rush (teasers) into the mix. The truth is that the South in this TL have as in OTL the much smaller financial position they had but will be comparably influential for at least the near term. The poor immigrants will go to the South and will be of Spanish, French, German, Irish (read Catholic) origin. The richer immigrants (also French, Spanish) will gravitate to New York and Philadelphia and the "Washington Territory" as an attempt to set themselves up in proper style. While there will be some interchange that will be the effect, in essence, one feudal lord for another and the return, to a degree, of the indentured servitude of the 18th century, at least until the labor market stabilizes in the 1830s.

Hope that helps. I believe a lot of the original text is in the middle of the TL.

Ah. At least the situation will still be far better than OTL, but still, that's the best you can get of these nasty times in US history. From what I remember, the date of the payment of securities would be five years after the manumission lottery selection. And yes, the manumission is always held every Fourth of July until 1830. That's what I've read IIRC. But can the situation that slaves are property be changed? Like using the Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal" and these slaves are men, not really property and slavery ran contrary to the spirit of the Revolution? Like slaves are more of men under involuntary and hereditary servitude rather than simple property? That would change things. However, Shawn is right that the immigrant is not always flush with cash, so it's inevitable that there would be a revival of indentured servitude and a de facto feudalistic system in the South but at least the laborers are more diverse and it might even help with racial relations; with poor whites and blacks having the same life experience. But at least by the time industrialization comes to the South, this situation will slowly but surely be reversed.
 
Ah. At least the situation will still be far better than OTL, but still, that's the best you can get of these nasty times in US history. From what I remember, the date of the payment of securities would be five years after the manumission lottery selection. And yes, the manumission is always held every Fourth of July until 1830. That's what I've read IIRC. But can the situation that slaves are property be changed? Like using the Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal" and these slaves are men, not really property and slavery ran contrary to the spirit of the Revolution? Like slaves are more of men under involuntary and hereditary servitude rather than simple property? That would change things. However, Shawn is right that the immigrant is not always flush with cash, so it's inevitable that there would be a revival of indentured servitude and a de facto feudalistic system in the South but at least the laborers are more diverse and it might even help with racial relations; with poor whites and blacks having the same life experience. But at least by the time industrialization comes to the South, this situation will slowly but surely be reversed.

I think the definition of slaves as property (certainly sick by mine and contemporary western standards) is the best route to lead to compensation, sticks close the intent of the constitutional drafters, and is the least ASB method of getting to my intended end result. I wrote my senior seminar paper for undergrad on Hamilton's financial system and its benefits and risks. What I propose here is what some historians contend he was conceptualizing in his "On Federalism" and written in letters to John Jay and other members of the New York Abolitionist Society (of which he, Jay, and IIRC Burr were members), essentially the notion of compensation for property as a solution to the issue of equitable relief (Contracts for all you lawyers and law students). It makes manumission palatable to the South (compensation for property) and equitable. I am convinced it is the way to go and is the only workable alternative that is "ASB-free"

As to your larger point I believe this original draft has Chief Justice Adams do the same thing that you want me to do. So I recognize and meld that part of the revolution with the constitution officially bringing the Declaration into jurisprudence and forcing us to contend with "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happyness" Slavery however did not run counter to the revolution but was imbedded in it. Abolitionism was growing the in North in 1776 (although still very much in the minority as it remained until the 1850s) and in England (remember England freed it's slaves in 1830). Finally Jefferson's original draft was "Life, Liberty, and Property," I think Franklin thought "Happyness" was snappier and it got changed, but I think we can imagine that Jefferson meant even human property. Anyway the problem as you can realize (and was recognized at the time) with changing the system of slavery at this early juncture is that it is intellectually palatable to many intelligent southerners, appealing even in light of their Enlightenment views, but is financially strenuous to say the least, hence CMA. For the CMA to be workable, Federal power needs to exist and yet slavery cannot be so entrenched and I felt by the 1820s it would have been, I am considering make CMA the crown jewel of Laurens presidency and not Jay's Presidency for that reason. Again another reason for the revamp. The problem is forcing the issue and allowing government that kind of power, which is why I added the Planter War with foreign influence, seemed appropriate and foreseeable for a multitude of reasons.

Anyway I think neo-feudalism is the short term solution to the south and will be back. Shawn made a great point as you re-iterate and it is staying in. As you correctly make the connection, indentured servitude will only serve to emphasize the inherent inequality in the southern plantation system as it did in OTL in the 1750s but as you will see American indentured service will look pretty good when compared to Europe (teaser ;)).
 
I think the definition of slaves as property (certainly sick by mine and contemporary western standards) is the best route to lead to compensation, sticks close the intent of the constitutional drafters, and is the least ASB method of getting to my intended end result. I wrote my senior seminar paper for undergrad on Hamilton's financial system and its benefits and risks. What I propose here is what some historians contend he was conceptualizing in his "On Federalism" and written in letters to John Jay and other members of the New York Abolitionist Society (of which he, Jay, and IIRC Burr were members), essentially the notion of compensation for property as a solution to the issue of equitable relief (Contracts for all you lawyers and law students). It makes manumission palatable to the South (compensation for property) and equitable. I am convinced it is the way to go and is the only workable alternative that is "ASB-free"

Ok. :D
As to your larger point I believe this original draft has Chief Justice Adams do the same thing that you want me to do. So I recognize and meld that part of the revolution with the constitution officially bringing the Declaration into jurisprudence and forcing us to contend with "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happyness" Slavery however did not run counter to the revolution but was imbedded in it. Abolitionism was growing the in North in 1776 (although still very much in the minority as it remained until the 1850s) and in England (remember England freed it's slaves in 1830). Finally Jefferson's original draft was "Life, Liberty, and Property," I think Franklin thought "Happyness" was snappier and it got changed, but I think we can imagine that Jefferson meant even human property. Anyway the problem as you can realize (and was recognized at the time) with changing the system of slavery at this early juncture is that it is intellectually palatable to many intelligent southerners, appealing even in light of their Enlightenment views, but is financially strenuous to say the least, hence CMA. For the CMA to be workable, Federal power needs to exist and yet slavery cannot be so entrenched and I felt by the 1820s it would have been, I am considering make CMA the crown jewel of Laurens presidency and not Jay's Presidency for that reason. Again another reason for the revamp. The problem is forcing the issue and allowing government that kind of power, which is why I added the Planter War with foreign influence, seemed appropriate and foreseeable for a multitude of reasons.

Why have the CMA happen in the 1800's already rather than in 1790's? A foreign intervention in the Planter War might push a successful Union in its aftermath to be more expansionist.

It's not impossible to at least slowly integrate Latin America into the Union, if you'll allow Latin American independence in the 1810's and 1820's. You can have the Union fought the French and intervene in Haiti. Then Haiti would be the crown jewel of Federalist social experiment in race relations. Bolivar then can be supported by the US that would lead to a possible Pan-American Confederation through the 1826 Congress of Panama which would have American representatives this time around. El Salvador can finally attain statehood in 1822 and just figure out the rest. Why not make the country have a strong finish in the Barbary War and establish North African protectorates? And establish close relations to an independent Greece?

Yes. I'm advocating a decent Ameriwank and my suggestions would be decent this time around. I'm not advocating outright annexations of North Africa and Latin America though. They could still happen though. Haitian statehood might be doable.

I just don't know if you can have a conquest of Canada in ATL War of 1812, if you'll make one. But Bermuda and Bahamas are doable in case.

American Taiwan would be even doable in 1853. And American Arctic islands north of Russia in 1881. British Columbia in 1867 as well. Dominican Republic in 1869 as well. American Congo in 1885. Then if you want a Spanish-American War sometime; then the entire Spanish Empire including Spanish Morocco and Ceuta. American Egypt through buying stocks of the Suez Canal Company can also happen. Sierra Leone be annexed to Liberia by purchase as well. Kamchatka through an ATL Lend Lease Act. Then Greenland be bought from Denmark. Jamaica and Guyana had statehood parties before. Gran Colombia as well. Baja California was also almost bought in 1917.

Anyway I think neo-feudalism is the short term solution to the south and will be back. Shawn made a great point as you re-iterate and it is staying in. As you correctly make the connection, indentured servitude will only serve to emphasize the inherent inequality in the southern plantation system as it did in OTL in the 1750s but as you will see American indentured service will look pretty good when compared to Europe (teaser ;)).

Land reform will be a very important issue in the country sometime in the future.
 
Just to let you know that I'm a great fan of your TL and used your ideas in this v.1 for my own TL in which I gave my credits to you. It's an unabashedly Ameriwank TL (The largest possible Ameriwank kind of thing).

When will be the reboot?? :)

EDIT: It's been since January 11, 2012 when he was gone. I don't know if something happened to him like that of Wolf but I do pray it's not. But my TL is for you then Mr. GreatScottMarty.
 
Just to let you know that I'm a great fan of your TL and used your ideas in this v.1 for my own TL in which I gave my credits to you. It's an unabashedly Ameriwank TL (The largest possible Ameriwank kind of thing).

When will be the reboot?? :)

EDIT: It's been since January 11, 2012 when he was gone. I don't know if something happened to him like that of Wolf but I do pray it's not. But my TL is for you then Mr. GreatScottMarty.

I despise Threadomancy as much as the next user so my apologies. School and life got in the way bad, I only now have started working on the revision, but I hope to reboot by the end of the summer. I realized as I was writing this my world was far more expansive and changed then I had originally thought it would be so I went back to formula and started over. Unlike Wolf, "the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." so I will be around more-ish. However, this time I will have the re-write totally done, before I post any of it. I am done with the intro and the first update. With that being said this is my last comment here, the updated version will be posted with a link for reference. Any questions comments or concerns, PM me.
 
I despise Threadomancy as much as the next user so my apologies. School and life got in the way bad, I only now have started working on the revision, but I hope to reboot by the end of the summer. I realized as I was writing this my world was far more expansive and changed then I had originally thought it would be so I went back to formula and started over. Unlike Wolf, "the reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." so I will be around more-ish. However, this time I will have the re-write totally done, before I post any of it. I am done with the intro and the first update. With that being said this is my last comment here, the updated version will be posted with a link for reference. Any questions comments or concerns, PM me.

It's perfectly fine to necro your own thread especially with these kinds of updates.

:):D YAHOO! :D:)

Well, anyway, just like you; my thread has been on indefinite hiatus right now because of how busy I am right now. Good to know that GreatScottMarty still lives! :D I'm definitely excited to see your new Laurens lives TL.

Just post it up here so that everyone can see it. Or just like mine, put it in your sig.

:) See you sometime man.
 
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