Latest possible point to centralize the HRE

From what I've read, I doubt Charles V could swing that Elfwine. He was constantly fighting with the French, and his brother, later known as HRE Ferdinand I, was his lieutenant for his domains in Germany. If Charles wasn't fighting with the French over Italy (I don't see how, but whatever) he could bring his attention to Germany and try to roll over everything military if his reforms were shot down. That seems kinda ASB though.

On some of the older threads about this, it was mentioned if the Emperor and the Pope weren't in pissing matches, the HRE could start to centralise some as the Pope wouldn't be stick his nose there.
 
From what I've read, I doubt Charles V could swing that Elfwine. He was constantly fighting with the French, and his brother, later known as HRE Ferdinand I, was his lieutenant for his domains in Germany. If Charles wasn't fighting with the French over Italy (I don't see how, but whatever) he could bring his attention to Germany and try to roll over everything military if his reforms were shot down. That seems kinda ASB though.

On some of the older threads about this, it was mentioned if the Emperor and the Pope weren't in pissing matches, the HRE could start to centralise some as the Pope wouldn't be stick his nose there.

I doubt he could, in those circumstances, but I'd say he was the last time it came up as anything anyone seriously had to worry about.

After Charles V, its just plain hopeless. In his reign, there's the possibility that Habsburg power can be directed in that direction if things go better than OTL.
 
Yes, Charles was likely the last time the HRE could have gotten itself together somehow. Regardless, that's a shot in the dark really.

As for the Habsburgs post Charles, the Ottomans would be eating up most of their attention for awhile, but after that they could have tried to exert some more control over the HRE. If it were that easy however, it would have happened OTL methinks. At best, the Habsburgs could snatch some more German land, like Bavaria.
 
Up until its very end it would be possible IMHO.

If Prussia got dismantled in the 7-years war Austria would dominate the region and likely revive the empty hull the HRE was at the time.

And if the HRE had survived until 1848 I'm sure the revolutionaries would have used it, even though it's merely a name by then.

Point is: no matter how hollow and useless the HRE became, you just don't drop such an important brand unless you absolutely have to. It's very possible that without Prussia and the dualism between austria and Prussia the German confederation would have be named HRE.

Nevertheless, Charles V. is the last time thta centralization could have happened whereby someone actually uses some institutions of the HRE to achieve this and does not simply use its homebase to force the other German princes into submission and later take over an old name for this.
 
With Brandenburg-Prussia weakened/destroyed, it would remove one headache but as you said Monty, force would have to be used to centralise. Not like the rest of Europe would necessarily sit idle as that would happen either.
 
It was only possible under the rule of Ottonians and the Salians. Later it was not possible anymore, because the other princes got too powerfull.
"His Imperial Majesty The Sultan Süleyman I,

Sovereign of the Imperial House of Osman,
Sultan of Sultans,
Khan of Khans,
Commander of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe,
Protector of the Holy Cities of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem,
Emperor of The Three Cities of Constantinople, Adrianople and Bursa, and of the Cities of Damascus and Cairo, of all Azerbaijan, of the Magris, of Barka, of Kairuan, of Aleppo, of Arabic Iraq and of Ajim, of Basra, of El Hasa, of Dilen, of Raka, of Mosul, of Parthia, of Diyar-i bekr, of Kurdistan, of Cilicia, of the Vilayets of Erzurum, of Sivas, of Adana, of Karaman, of Van, of Barbary, of Abyssinia, of Tunisia, of Tripoli, of Damascus, of Cyprus, of Rhodes, of Candia, of the Vilayet of the Morea, of the Marmara Sea, of the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and also its coasts, of Anatolia, of Rumelia, Baghdad, Greece, Turkistan, Tartary, Circassia, of the two regions of Kabarda, of Georgia, of the plain of Kypshak, of the whole country of the Tartars, of Kefa and of all the neighbouring countries, of Bosnia and its dependencies, of the City and Fort of Belgrade, of the Vilayet (District) of Serbia, with all the castles, forts and cities, of all Albania, of all Iflak and Bogdania, as well as all the dependencies and borders, and many other countries and cities."

That's already a long list of titles, do you really think Süleyman would want to add "the Holy Roman Emperor, King of Hungary, Bohemia, Croatia, Dalmatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria, etc" to that list? Poor guy. :D
 
Why centralize it?

Up until its very end it would be possible IMHO.

If Prussia got dismantled in the 7-years war Austria would dominate the region and likely revive the empty hull the HRE was at the time.

And if the HRE had survived until 1848 I'm sure the revolutionaries would have used it, even though it's merely a name by then.

What few people take into consideration is how many institutions the HRE had in the 18th century, which could be used as a shell for better things to come. It had a kind of defense-organisation (the Reichskreise), an "international court", a kind of "UN general assembly". If the HRE survived the French Revolutionary Wars or the those get butterflied away, German nationalism and liberalism might voice ideas to use exactly these institutions to attempt reforms and re-integrate Germany.

Institutions for a common market, as in OTL after 1834, would follow just as well.

Ironically, in a surviving HRE, 19th-century reforms might actually be easier to accomplish with all the fossils around instead of the bunch of middle-powers which emerged in the 1800s. But, basically, Germany would remain a federation. However, I see nothing wrong with that.
 
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That's already a long list of titles, do you really think Süleyman would want to add "the Holy Roman Emperor, King of Hungary, Bohemia, Croatia, Dalmatia, Slavonia, Galicia, Lodomeria, etc" to that list? Poor guy. :D
I think that you confuse the Ottonians (Henry I, Otto I the Great, Otto II, Otto III and Henry II) with the Ottomans. That can happen... ;)
 
IMO during the reign of Fredrick II barbarossa. After his death the empire basically crumbled.
Federick I was called Barbarossa. And his major fault was that he gave two duchies into the hand of one man: Henry the Lion.

EDIT: The feud between the Hohenstaufen and the Welfs was one reason that a centralized HRE was not possible anymore.
 
What few people take into consideration is how many institutions the HRE had in the 18th century, which could be used as a shell for better things to come. It had a kind of defense-organisation (the Reichskreise), an "international court", a kind of "UN general assembly".

True - but given that pretty much every international war was fought on German soil between member states of the Empire, how effective were these institutions?

I think they were just remnants of former glory. But as you said, someone who draws his power from other sources can use these remnants for centralization of Germany.

That this would end in a federation is IMHO highly likely. The question is anyway how to get a German central state rather than a federal state with a strong center.
 
Ironically, in a surviving HRE, 19th-century reforms might actually be easier to accomplish with all the fossils around instead of the bunch of middle-powers which emerged in the 1800s. But, basically, Germany would remain a federation. However, I see nothing wrong with that.

You mean because it will be very easy to persuade areas like Swabia or Thuringia where there are several large but disjointed states that would like free trade in an area to link their domains, which would naturally conglomerate without any one state dominating.
 

You mean because it will be very easy to persuade areas likeSwabia or Thuringia where there are several large but disjointed states thatwould like free trade in an area to link their domains, which would naturallyconglomerate without any one state dominating.

That's similar to whathappened 1834 onwards.

True - but given that pretty much every international war was fought on German soil between member states of the Empire, how effective were these institutions?

I think they were just remnants of former glory. But as you said, someone who draws his power from other sources can use these remnants for centralization of Germany.

That this would end in a federation is IMHO highly likely. The question is anyway how to get a German central state rather than a federal state with a strong center.

You cannot call them remnants of former glory because they came into existence at points of time when the glory is already former.

However, as I said, these institutions were not very effective, but provided a possible framework; similar institutions worked a bit better 1815-66 in a different setting, slowly drawing (Klein-) Germany together.

A German central state needs an abolishment of all monarchies. Once they have reached a level of sovereignty granted in 1648, you will find it hard to throw all the princes out and just have one of them. =>1848 and 1871.

The Weimar Constitution could have done that, but was too timid, therefore doing little reform and turning ridiculous little principalities into ridiculous republics.

The 3rd Reich was actually too hodgepodge in its institutions to be called a central state properly.

So, I am afraid, the only central state in German history is.... the GDR from 1952 onwards.
 
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