Latest POD for a successful Sealion.

Snowstalker

Alright, so we all agree that by the time the Nazis planned an invasion of Britain, the idea was next to impossible even if the Germans DID get air superiority.

However, what sort of POD could lead to a successful German naval invasion of Britain during WW2?
 

anon_user

What about a PoD in the 1520s?

James V of Scotland, in 1528, becomes King of Scotland and marries into the House of Hohenzollern; somewhere down the line, but before the Stuarts can inherit England (which they don't in this TL), a Hohenzollern inherits Scotland. Eventually, Brandenberg-Scotland becomes Germany, and Germany launches a naval invasion of British England, from bases in Scotland, in a bid to try to break the Antonine Line. This is codenamed Sea Lion; it succeeds in its objectives.

/tongue held firmly in cheek on this one.
 
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Astrodragon

Its very difficult, because it has to be late enough the British dont simply build up defences once they see the landing craft and navy.
But anything after 1933 runs into the fully comitted German resources.
1929 - 1933 is out because of the worldwide depression
Before 1929 you have Germany still firmly under the allies heel.

Maybe a different treaty of Versaiiles..?

But realistically its so difficult after 1814 due to the RN... and it isnt that easy PRE 1814..

Maybe the most workable solution is something that basically causes a revolution (peaceful or otherwise) that somehow makes them think they dont need to defend the channel
 

xchen08

A successful German seaborne invasion of Britain in the 30s-40s is not exceedingly difficult, and there are any number of post-1900 PODs that can plausibly bring it about.

Sealion on the other hand, as understood to be a seaborne invasion of the UK by Nazi Germany in a recognizable WWII on the other hand...
 

anon_user

Try redefining Germany and Britain, as I did?

Oh, wait - the date of the invasion wasn't specified, so I can move up my PoD to the 1660s or so!

Here we go: 'Sea Lion' refers to the landing of the Brandenberg Elector (who, in this TL, is related to the Stuarts and is thus a 'legitimate' claimant to the English throne - and is sufficiently moderate to be considered as a monarch by Parliament) in England in the Glorious Revolution of 1689. Given that Brandenberg became Germany (via Prussia) and England became Britain, this counts, right? Right?

Oh wait - during World War II. Fine.
 
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wietze

anon_user, at that time its easier to connect to some existing event.

ie the raid on medway (1667) is a full blown invasion and succeeds ;)
 

anon_user

Unfortunately, it does need to be during a World War 2. So we need to change historiography as well. Besides, the Dutch aren't the Deutsch, despite what the Amish might have you believe.
 

Don Lardo

xchen08 said:
Sealion on the other hand, as understood to be a seaborne invasion of the UK by Nazi Germany in a recognizable WWII on the other hand...
Click to expand...


And therein lays the rub...

Making plausible proposals about an invasion of a Britain by a Germany in a war around the same period is easy. For example, Decades of Darkness features an entirely plausible and ultimately successful invasion of Britain by Germany in the 1930s. That invasion is not Sealion however.

Sealion needs to be an invasion of a recognizable UK by a recognizable Nazi Germany in a recognizable World War 2, yet this "recognition requirement" is something which the herd of boobs continually nattering on about the plausibility of Sealion completely fail to understand.

Yes, given enough PODs an invasion of the UK by Germany during a war in the 1940s is entirely plausible. However, those PODs also mean that the "UK", the "Germany", and the "war" are not recognizable to us and therefore the invasion is not Sealion.
 

B_Munro

Don Lardo said:
And therein lays the rub...


Sealion needs to be an invasion of a recognizable UK by a recognizable Nazi Germany in a recognizable World War 2, yet this "recognition requirement" is something which the herd of boobs continually nattering on about the plausibility of Sealion completely fail to understand.
Click to expand...

Huh? I thought the annoying bit was that people keep claiming that you _can_ have a successful invasion with a recognizable Nazi Germany and UK. See BlairWitch up the thread.

Bruce
 

Don Lardo

B_Munro said:
Huh? I thought the annoying bit was that people keep claiming that you _can_ have a successful invasion with a recognizable Nazi Germany and UK. See BlairWitch up the thread.
Click to expand...


That is the annoying bit and that's what I was writing about.

The true believers first begin by postulating a Sealion which contains a few minor changes they'd like to believe would work. Check out BlairWitch's attempt involving hydrofoils and coastal artillery for example. These initial attempts then are refuted, as with all attempts, and/or laughed at, such as with Graehame's various pronouncements. The refutations and/or laughter then lead the true believers to make more and more changes, when they don't simply stick their fingers in their ears ala Graehame, until those changes move the situation past the "recognition threshold" whereupon even the true believer stops their efforts.

The true believers continually fail to realize from the start that a Sealion requires PODs so wrenching and deep as to render it unrecognizable and thus not Sealion at all.
 

brokenman

How bout no Sealion at all? Germany could spare materiel for Barbarossa, yet still face wrath of an Allied landing somewhere in France. You could do well with a Battle of Britain with V2s and V1s.
 
The Kiat

The Kiat

I'm going to say the latest PoD would be several million years ago, when a shift in the crust causes the North Sea to never be formed.
 
juanml82

juanml82

POD: 1,000 BC, a particle of space dust hits a small chunk of space rock, affecting its orbit by 0.0000000000000000001% (or however that's measured)
More than a thousand years later, the Tunguska meteorite hits earth decades later, on, let's say, 1/1/1940, over Scapa Flow.
There you go.... or that's not enough?
 

MattII

Okay, I don't know if I should have started a new thread for this or not, but given the number of threads we have on the subject already...

In any case, is there any way a NAZI era PoD could see the Germans, not actually succeeding, but taking Dover with some of its facilities intact, and making it to the first stop line and 1941 (not together though), ie, basically turning it into a colossal Stalingrad type scenario?
 

Lord Grattan

MattII said:
Okay, I don't know if I should have started a new thread for this or not, but given the number of threads we have on the subject already...

In any case, is there any way a NAZI era PoD could see the Germans, not actually succeeding, but taking Dover with some of its facilities intact, and making it to the first stop line and 1941 (not together though), ie, basically turning it into a colossal Stalingrad type scenario?
Click to expand...


Please do not awaken old threads, especially "SL" threads. BTW, the short answer to your question is no.
 
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