Latest Japan adopts Romaji/China pinyin

Simple idea: What is the latest time that Japan could adopt a Romaji writing system, or China adopt pinyin (or a similar system)?

I know that the two countries had radically different situations at all points in time- I think China would have it easiest to pull off, with a single-party, supposedly 'progressive' dictatorship.
 
Doubt that it's possible. The japanese language does not differentiate according to pronounciation, while the chinese does even in it's pinyin. Even in normal conversation the Japanese tend to draw Kanji in their palms due to the many homophons...
 
I'm sure I remember reading something about Meiji wanting to adopt the latin alphabet.
I doubt this would have been as a replacement for everything though, as said by deathgod there are lots of homophones, maybe it could replace the kana at best....and it would be very unpopular.
 
Doubt that it's possible. The japanese language does not differentiate according to pronounciation, while the chinese does even in it's pinyin. Even in normal conversation the Japanese tend to draw Kanji in their palms due to the many homophons...

AFAIK Romaji is used in many sectors of Japan... there's no reason it shouldn't work that kanji would. Most languages have a number of homophones, and isn't it a disadvantage if you have several definitions for a single kanji/hanzi?

Aside from tones, there's especially no reason for it not to work in Chinese. Wo zaixue Chinese and there's a LOT of differentiation in sound. Tones could easily be added to the alphabet (as we see in pinyin). The only real reason China continues to use hanzi is that it bridges the extremely diverse Chinese languages, but with the dominance of Putonghua I don't think that will be much of an issue for long. Most guangzhouren have Putonghua as a second language and lingua franca, same for other language groups.
 
Japanese could adopt romaji... tomorrow!

That'd be a shame since I spent years learning Kanji, but it's totally doable. Half their language these days is loan words anyway, represented in yet another alphabet, Katakana.
 
It's impossible for Chinese, since pinyin cant represent tones very well and because there are way too many homophones. Mao tried it early on and opted to go with simplified characters (also a stupid idea) instead. As for Japanese, half their written language would become incomprehensible if they got rid of kanji, since so many nouns and technical terms exist only as sino-japanese renderings.

Why are people so fixated on doing away with characters?

The only real reason China continues to use hanzi is that it bridges the extremely diverse Chinese languages, but with the dominance of Putonghua I don't think that will be much of an issue for long.
Aside from the fact that Hanzi provide cultural depth, are recognized more immediately, and take up less space than the alternative? Have you ever tried texting someone using only pinyin? It barely works even for simple matters.
 
Simple idea: What is the latest time that Japan could adopt a Romaji writing system, or China adopt pinyin (or a similar system)?

I know that the two countries had radically different situations at all points in time- I think China would have it easiest to pull off, with a single-party, supposedly 'progressive' dictatorship.

During the American military occupation of Japan during WW2, it was suggested that the Japanese get rid of kanji and replace it with Romaji. There's your very latest POD.
 
During the American military occupation of Japan during WW2, it was suggested that the Japanese get rid of kanji and replace it with Romaji. There's your very latest POD.

I agree that this is the latest, but it's not the likeliest.
 

loughery111

Banned
AFAIK Romaji is used in many sectors of Japan... there's no reason it shouldn't work that kanji would. Most languages have a number of homophones, and isn't it a disadvantage if you have several definitions for a single kanji/hanzi?

Aside from tones, there's especially no reason for it not to work in Chinese. Wo zaixue Chinese and there's a LOT of differentiation in sound. Tones could easily be added to the alphabet (as we see in pinyin). The only real reason China continues to use hanzi is that it bridges the extremely diverse Chinese languages, but with the dominance of Putonghua I don't think that will be much of an issue for long. Most guangzhouren have Putonghua as a second language and lingua franca, same for other language groups.

你学中文学了多长时间?我告诉你,如果你继续学习的话,你会快就发现中文需要汉字;拼音肯定表示中文的发音发表得不太好。你现在认识的谐音词不多,自然以为拼音够,因为你不知道每个声音有多少个汉字。相信我,不是这样;拼音不能发表中文所有的词。
 
well, said, loughery. It simply doesn't make sense to jettison Hanzi for a purely phonetic system. Your text had some relatively funny parts, for example your use of “发表”; I'd would think "代表" is more fitting since the latter means "publish". Good job overall though. :)
 
Japan could do it easier then China

Japan has one language with multiple scripts. Mainly Kanji, Hirigana, Katakana, and Romaji, all used together in any given modern magazine. Then variants such as hentaigana, furigana, and kanbu, not to mention 3 variants of Romaji. Let's not even get into the order of characters, tategaki (top to bottom, right to left) vs yokogaki (left to right, top to bottom). There have been many attempts at reform, including one suggestion that the Japanese just speak French and all problems solved. To learn more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_script_reform

On the other hand, China has the opposite situation, two main languages (Cantonese and Mandarin) sharing one writing system that is mutually intelligible. I recall going to a Chinese restaurant with my boss, who was of Cantonese origin, who could not communicate with the waitress who spoke Mandarin. Not a problem, the waitress handed my boss a notepad and pencil and she wrote the order, which was understood by the waitress. Seems to me if the Chinese adopted an alphabetic system this would impede communication between the two language groups.
 
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loughery111

Banned
well, said, loughery. It simply doesn't make sense to jettison Hanzi for a purely phonetic system. Your text had some relatively funny parts, for example your use of “发表”; I'd would think "代表" is more fitting since the latter means "publish". Good job overall though. :)

该死!你说得对;我的意思肯定是“代表,”不是“发表”......失败了。谢谢。

This is what I get for only having studied for a few years... :D
 
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loughery111

Banned
Well, if the Latin alphabet is intimidating, there's always the Cyrillic alphabet successfully used by the Dungan in Central Asia.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/dungan.htm

The problem I raised (sorry, should have provided a translation) was that Pinyin is not sufficient to differentiate between words with the same pronunciations but which have different characters. Chinese has too many homophones by far to successfully implement such a system. It would be tantamount to having the a language in which "tree" means both "tree" and "cook," and there's no good way to differentiate between the two when writing. There's nothing wrong, per se, with the Latin alphabet, but neither it nor Cyrillic will successfully solve the problem described above.

On the other hand, China has the opposite situation, two main languages (Cantonese and Mandarin) sharing one writing system that is mutually intelligible. I recall going to a Chinese restaurant with my boss, who was of Cantonese origin, who could not communicate with the waitress who spoke Mandarin. Not a problem, the waitress handed my boss a notepad and pencil and she wrote the order, which was understood by the waitress. Seems to me if the Chinese adopted an alphabetic system this would impede communication between the two language groups.

I've actually done the same thing, TBH; went to a very traditional restaurant in Nanjing where the waitstaff were part of the family, and only spoke Shanghaiese, or at least seemed to only speak it. We just wrote out what we wanted and pointed for emphasis. Worked well enough. So you raise an important point that I'd missed in my last rant, namely that Pinyin works only for Mandarin.
 
Vietnamese is written in a highly modified Latin script. A wide range of diacritic marks indicate tones. How successful has this highly modified Latin script been for the Vietnamese? How do the Vietnamese deal with homonyms?

There is a colonial valence. The script was invented by a French missionary priest. Hence the "new" Vietnamese script carries some colonial baggage. I can't imagine Beijing appropriating Pinyin with four-tone diacritics. This would certain be a nod to western influences.
 
During the American military occupation of Japan during WW2, it was suggested that the Japanese get rid of kanji and replace it with Romaji. There's your very latest POD.

IIRC In a book I read they keep trying to change to romanji even in the sixties so its not so implausible ...

( ignoring most of them do not really wanted of course ... )
 
Vietnamese is written in a highly modified Latin script. A wide range of diacritic marks indicate tones. How successful has this highly modified Latin script been for the Vietnamese? How do the Vietnamese deal with homonyms?

There is a colonial valence. The script was invented by a French missionary priest. Hence the "new" Vietnamese script carries some colonial baggage. I can't imagine Beijing appropriating Pinyin with four-tone diacritics. This would certain be a nod to western influences.

I think that Vietnamese has far, far fewer homonyms than Mandarin.

On the other hand, I had the impression that other Chinese languages have far fewer homonyms than Mandarin. That is, I'm based this entirely on the way that Lion-Eating Poet in the Stone Den is derived in the different dialects.

It seems to me that languages like Cantonese and Hakka, with more tones and less homonyms than Mandarin, may be able to get away with using the Latin script with diacritic marks like Vietnamese uses.
 
The problem I raised (sorry, should have provided a translation) was that Pinyin is not sufficient to differentiate between words with the same pronunciations but which have different characters. Chinese has too many homophones by far to successfully implement such a system. It would be tantamount to having the a language in which "tree" means both "tree" and "cook," and there's no good way to differentiate between the two when writing. There's nothing wrong, per se, with the Latin alphabet, but neither it nor Cyrillic will successfully solve the problem described above.

The "homophone problem" in Modern Standard Mandarin can be solved as in English and many other languages with homophones - the context can disambiguate the different types of homophones.

I've actually done the same thing, TBH; went to a very traditional restaurant in Nanjing where the waitstaff were part of the family, and only spoke Shanghaiese, or at least seemed to only speak it. We just wrote out what we wanted and pointed for emphasis. Worked well enough. So you raise an important point that I'd missed in my last rant, namely that Pinyin works only for Mandarin.

Well, that was what Pinyin was designed for; however, there have been extensions of it to include other members of Sinitic, as well as non-Chinese languages such as Tibetan.
 
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