Germany is a western country which was carved out and partitioned into puppet states.
Latest Complete Conquest of United States
- Thread starter YamSeng
- Start date
Germany had land borders with countries significantly larger and more powerful, decided it was a great idea to fight a country that could fight them on an even footing (the USSR) while also battle the most powerful country in the world (the US) and fighting the only place that could be safely used as an invasion point into the continent (the UK).
The US has no powerful (comparitively) neighbors, is blocked from its competition by an ocean, has enormous natural resources (this is especially true in the early 20th century when it produced some 80% of the world's oil supply, as well as large amounts of coal and more steel than the next several countries COMBINED).
The two situations are not comparable.
Saphroneth
Banned
Control in what sense? Because looking into it, I also see a treaty in 1795 (Greenville) which defined the areas in which Americans were allowed to settle.
This was promptly ignored.
usertron2020
Donor
Monty takes Denver!
I know this is pre-1900, but if anyone wants the laughs there is an old discussion thread on spacebattles.com from 2009 called "War Plan Red + Orange". Hysterical. Three rabid Anti-American Sun Never Sets Britons (An Ancient, tigger, and our departed 67th Tigers) making a ferocious argument that a combined assault on America by the British and Japanese Empires (France takes out Hitler early, so no WWII) in 1942 would overrun the entire American continent, using an armored thrust by the British Army sweeping into the plains and knocking out the Great Lakes industrial basin. Yeah, hysterical, but these guys were actually serious!
Thankfully, our own Alamo showed up and fixed all three of their little red wagons.
I know this is pre-1900, but if anyone wants the laughs there is an old discussion thread on spacebattles.com from 2009 called "War Plan Red + Orange". Hysterical. Three rabid Anti-American Sun Never Sets Britons (An Ancient, tigger, and our departed 67th Tigers) making a ferocious argument that a combined assault on America by the British and Japanese Empires (France takes out Hitler early, so no WWII) in 1942 would overrun the entire American continent, using an armored thrust by the British Army sweeping into the plains and knocking out the Great Lakes industrial basin. Yeah, hysterical, but these guys were actually serious!
Thankfully, our own Alamo showed up and fixed all three of their little red wagons.
1812-15 was probably the latest. After that, you start to get a lot of economic growth in the north, and a rapidly growing population of which increasingly few can even remember a time before the Constitution, let alone British rule, while also living increasingly far inland.
On the subject of War Plan Red, it's true that the Navy War College thought the best we could get was a draw and maybe the annexation of Canada, but the color plans were often amusingly off base. (Orange expected Guam and the Philippines to hold their own against Japan until the Pacific fleet mobilized, then we would fight a naval battle and blockade the home islands). British theory from the same time period (they were not permitted to make formal plans for an Anglo-American war) was that a draw was the best they could hope for, and that they should surrender if a significant US fleet was able to get near Britain (how we were supposed to maintain a blockade so far from our bases I don't know). Most likely, in actual practice, the UK would never land in North America and, after losing ground at sea (due to superior American numbers and carriers if nothing else), would ultimately cede some territory in the peace treaty. (Canada, various Caribbean islands, how much would depend on exactly how the naval war went).
On the subject of War Plan Red, it's true that the Navy War College thought the best we could get was a draw and maybe the annexation of Canada, but the color plans were often amusingly off base. (Orange expected Guam and the Philippines to hold their own against Japan until the Pacific fleet mobilized, then we would fight a naval battle and blockade the home islands). British theory from the same time period (they were not permitted to make formal plans for an Anglo-American war) was that a draw was the best they could hope for, and that they should surrender if a significant US fleet was able to get near Britain (how we were supposed to maintain a blockade so far from our bases I don't know). Most likely, in actual practice, the UK would never land in North America and, after losing ground at sea (due to superior American numbers and carriers if nothing else), would ultimately cede some territory in the peace treaty. (Canada, various Caribbean islands, how much would depend on exactly how the naval war went).
Defeat? Quite possibly. Conquer and occupy? You have 3,000 miles of ocean separating the two continents and then you have to march 5,000 miles to get to California. The CSA alone was around the size of the Napoleonic Empire outside of Russia and the country grew since then. Remember this, Napoleon was able to conquer that smaller area for a while but it fell apart AND it was on the same continent.
Well, that's the challenge. Let's give the US land borders significantly larger and more powerful (Canada and Mexico-Wank?), make the government silly enough to fight one of these powers (M-A war analogue?) while also battling the most powerful country in the world (UK?) and also the only place that could be safely used as an invasion point into the continent (No idea. Africa-> Brazil?)
Admiral Halsey
Banned
Please tell me you have a link!I know this is pre-1900, but if anyone wants the laughs there is an old discussion thread on spacebattles.com from 2009 called "War Plan Red + Orange". Hysterical. Three rabid Anti-American Sun Never Sets Britons (An Ancient, tigger, and our departed 67th Tigers) making a ferocious argument that a combined assault on America by the British and Japanese Empires (France takes out Hitler early, so no WWII) in 1942 would overrun the entire American continent, using an armored thrust by the British Army sweeping into the plains and knocking out the Great Lakes industrial basin. Yeah, hysterical, but these guys were actually serious!
Thankfully, our own Alamo showed up and fixed all three of their little red wagons.
ManintheField
Banned
That combination of powers could not certainly beat the US and would not be any where near capable of completing subjugating it and taking it over.
People here seem to have a lot of trouble appreciating problems of scale. In the 1860's the northern half of the United States pulled a million man, fully modern military establishment out of its nether regions in just a few years. What hypothetical combination of powers could match that amount of military force in the Western hemisphere at the time?
The Continental United States east of the Mississippi river is larger than Western Europe. At a time when the US did not have the ability to simply outman and outproduce any force projected into the hemisphere, most powers would have a lot of trouble reaching into the increasingly well settled heartlands of this early US. In the Revolution the British retained the ability to essentially descend upon and occupy coastal or major riverene cities at will: And it made almost no difference to the will or capacity of Americans to fight because they simply didn't represent a large enough portion of the country.
Any realistic combination of powers with a realistic dedication to the war effort simply isn't going to be able to occupy and destroy the political independence of a determined American populace after the start of the 19th century, and it's a damned hard challenge even getting into the latter half of the 18th. The problems of distance, both over ocean and land, are simply too daunted in most cases.
usertron2020
Donor
Sorry, i don't. I can only tell you that its 20 full pages of shouting matches, with all reasoned arguments made against the three amigos of that thread bouncing off like cannonballs off an ironclad. spacebattles.com's obsession is against plagiarism, not good behavior so much.
The long and the short of it is these three insist on an ASB scenario in which the Japanese and British are allowed four long years of total mobilization between 1938 and 1942, and then getting a board game version of "Free Deployment" for the British in which all their forces are transported to wherever the British wish to send them, without any reaction from Uncle Sam. All the while the Americans being frozen in place in 1942 with their 1938 forces AT their 1938 locations!
Like I said, hysterical
If the tread requires an independent USA to begin with, and the end date is the present day, the only even remotely close to plausible is a resurgent Spanish or early and very powerful Mexican Empire - but again, the problem is motivation. Even if they can do it, why? Especially if it's after the example of Napoleon?