Latest & alternate animal domestication

I've been thinking about human domestication of animals after watching CPG Grey's video on america pox on YouTube haha and it got me thinking, how long does animal domestication take? Obviously the temperament and lifespan of the animal would effect things. I recall reading about a soviet program to produce domesticated foxes which I assume was done within a human generation or two.

So what's the latest humans could add another species to the domestication list? And can you guys think of any good contenders? It surprises me the list is so small, even today!
 
Well honestly had we not always killed them animals most animals with Island tameness would easily be selectively breed and domesticated because they would already be tame to begin with.

Its upsetting really, like imagine a world of cute dwarfed elephants and hippos with large bird species as livestock all lost because invaders killed them.

No but seriously the possibilities and potentials of specialized bird and mammal species that could be utilized in marginal areas from deserts to swamps to alpine regions would have truly expanded the ranges of human habitation and material culture.
 
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I don't think that domestication happens the way people think it does. I don't think that mostly, it was a case of people getting together, corralling some critters, controlling their breeding and turning them into fluffy pets.

I think that the domestication process is a mutualist thing. Clap your hands at a dog, the dog looks at you. Clap your hands at a wolf, the wolf won't stop running. How does that happen?

How do you domesticate an animal that can kill you easily?

I think that the first part of domestication is voluntary. That the animals find enough benefit to the presence of humans, that they habituate. They get used to hanging about humans. We represent a food source. Dogs found good eating scavenging our leftovers. Cats found lots and lots of mice. Horses and cattle found terrific eating in and around wheat based agriculture. All of this was enough that they could accept the risk of human presence, they learned to watch humans, determine when we were dangerous, and snack up when we aren't around.

There's a whole category of animals - crows, ravens, seagulls, rats, coyotes, raccoons, that are all technically wild, but that live in cities and towns, that inhabit our garages, roam our alleys, and make a very god living off of us. I've come within a few feet of wild raccoons. Not voluntary on the side of either one of us, and we both moved apart. But the point is, that this animal was completely habituated to human presence and environment.

Years ago, I knew some grow farmers - marijuana. They told me that sometimes, Deer would watch them, waiting for them to leave, so that they could move in on the weed field. That' an animal that is exhibiting some very nuanced observation and judgement towards human behaviour and human activities.

That's halfway to what we call domestication.

The difference between a raccoon and a chicken or a pig or a horse, I think, is not that the raccoon is incapable of domestication. It's just that we've never found an ecological or economic niche in our societies that the raccoons could inhabit. Dogs, habituated to our presence and knowledgeable to our ways, turned out to have all kinds of great uses, and we turned out to have all sorts of benefits to them. Cats made great mousers for us, and we made great mouse factories for them.

Domestication is a mutualist process historically. There's a point where domestication is completely human controlled and driven. But this seems to be later in the process.
 
I don't think that domestication happens the way people think it does. I don't think that mostly, it was a case of people getting together, corralling some critters, controlling their breeding and turning them into fluffy pets.

I think that the domestication process is a mutualist thing. Clap your hands at a dog, the dog looks at you. Clap your hands at a wolf, the wolf won't stop running. How does that happen?

How do you domesticate an animal that can kill you easily?

I think that the first part of domestication is voluntary. That the animals find enough benefit to the presence of humans, that they habituate. They get used to hanging about humans. We represent a food source. Dogs found good eating scavenging our leftovers. Cats found lots and lots of mice. Horses and cattle found terrific eating in and around wheat based agriculture. All of this was enough that they could accept the risk of human presence, they learned to watch humans, determine when we were dangerous, and snack up when we aren't around.

There's a whole category of animals - crows, ravens, seagulls, rats, coyotes, raccoons, that are all technically wild, but that live in cities and towns, that inhabit our garages, roam our alleys, and make a very god living off of us. I've come within a few feet of wild raccoons. Not voluntary on the side of either one of us, and we both moved apart. But the point is, that this animal was completely habituated to human presence and environment.

Years ago, I knew some grow farmers - marijuana. They told me that sometimes, Deer would watch them, waiting for them to leave, so that they could move in on the weed field. That' an animal that is exhibiting some very nuanced observation and judgement towards human behaviour and human activities.

That's halfway to what we call domestication.

The difference between a raccoon and a chicken or a pig or a horse, I think, is not that the raccoon is incapable of domestication. It's just that we've never found an ecological or economic niche in our societies that the raccoons could inhabit. Dogs, habituated to our presence and knowledgeable to our ways, turned out to have all kinds of great uses, and we turned out to have all sorts of benefits to them. Cats made great mousers for us, and we made great mouse factories for them.

Domestication is a mutualist process historically. There's a point where domestication is completely human controlled and driven. But this seems to be later in the process.
Absolutely, the same thing I said about plant domestication applies here as well. With the historical beasts that have been domesticated, most have in their own way selected amongst themselves progeny that would later have the plasticity that could be further shaped by human communities. Its a dance of sort, or I guess the construction of a "language" that could be read, replicated and responded to. But with animals with island naivety for the most part they made themselves quite amendable to people. A bit too much, like the kakapo that tried to breed the head of a man. With time though those without fear and directly making contact with humans could form relationships that would arise in tale-tell signs of what we call doemstication.

The only exception is a particular subset of foxes in the Aluetians that were apex predators that constantly attacked and fought castaways, literally unable to recognize the threat is naivety too just a form that would take a lot of effort to alter through selection pressures.
 

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Well honestly had we not always killed them animals most animals with Island tameness would easily be selectively breed and domesticated because they would already be tame to begin with.

Its upsetting really, like imagine a world of cute dwarfed elephants and hippos with large bird species as livestock all lost because invaders killed them.
Domesticated island elephants would be a cool novelty, but what would they offer that oxen and mules don't?
 
Domesticated island elephants would be a cool novelty, but what would they offer that oxen and mules don't?
resistance to common livestock diseases, foragers rather than grazers meaning forests could remain intact or modified rather than stripped and denuded into sterile grasslands maintained through burning, an additional one time income of ivory, a quality beast of burden capable of doing tasks with its trunk and an ability to learn beyond the scope of most animals & a riding animal. Elephant milk also has a fascinating composition.

But over all more domesticated animals to fill more ecological niches, they couldn't compete with cattle on the plain and wouldn't necessarily be the best option either their. But they could thrive in other environments or be raised amongst grazers to provide a guard of sorts, like how llamas are used in sheep herds.
 

Deleted member 97083

resistance to common livestock diseases, foragers rather than grazers meaning forests could remain intact or modified rather than stripped and denuded into sterile grasslands maintained through burning, an additional one time income of ivory, a quality beast of burden capable of doing tasks with its trunk and an ability to learn beyond the scope of most animals & a riding animal. Elephant milk also has a fascinating composition.

But over all more domesticated animals to fill more ecological niches, they couldn't compete with cattle on the plain and wouldn't necessarily be the best option either their. But they could thrive in other environments or be raised amongst grazers to provide a guard of sorts, like how llamas are used in sheep herds.
Excellent points especially the sustainable foraging. I am now convinced of the glory of mini-elephant-based civilization.
 
Excellent points. I am now convinced of the glory of elephant-based civilization.
I would just love mountain societies with in essence a donkey/goat/bull hybrid, Mediterranean at that! It would be so interesting so see how montane Crete, Sardinia, Malta and Sicily would have developed. An Elephant-centered peasantry that lived in chestnut forests they harvested their daily bread from. Not with small goats and the occasional cow but a real livestock option perfectly suited for that kind of ecosystem.
 

Deleted member 97083

I would just love mountain societies with in essence a donkey/goat/bull hybrid, Mediterranean at that! It would be so interesting so see how montane Crete, Sardinia, Malta and Sicily would have developed. An Elephant-centered peasantry that lived in chestnut forests they harvested their daily bread from. Not with small goats and the occasional cow but a real livestock option perfectly suited for that kind of ecosystem.
Also if the island elephant was brought to the hills of North Africa, or the forested periphery of Anatolia and Mesopotamia, it could be much more sustainable than goats and prevent a great deal of early environmental degradation.

Hannibal could cross the Alps with 380 mini elephants instead of 38 regular elephants.
 
The dodo seems like a good candidate. It's so bizarre looking that I'm amazed it never caught on as a common animal to add to menageries in that era of Europe. Dodo meat seems mixed as toward how it might've tasted, but perhaps it was an acquired taste. But the traits and life cycle of the bird seem extremely easy to bend toward human will and its rather odd that it never was domesticated.

But with a lot of animals, we already have substitutes for them. Coyotes might be able to be domesticated, but we already have dogs. Bobcats or lynx too, but we already have cats. If something like the Soviet fox program were attempted with some other animals (perhaps lynx), it would no doubt see similar results.

Also if the island elephant was brought to the hills of North Africa, or the forested periphery of Anatolia and Mesopotamia, it could be much more sustainable than goats and prevent a great deal of early environmental degradation.

Hannibal could cross the Alps with 380 mini elephants instead of 38 regular elephants.

North African elephants were pretty miniature as they were. I've heard they were basically a dwarf version of the African bush elephant that unlike the bush elephant, was suitable for taming. Hannibal's personal elephant was a more typical Syrian elephant, though.
 
So we need to identify a niche not yet filled that another animal would be able to do very well in, the example of elephants and forests having been given. I have to say I am in total agreement with Achaemenid Rome over how awesome a pygmy elephant based civilisation would be!! But I have doubts as to the feasibility of actually creating a population of truly domesticated elephants (even mini ones) before the modern day (say late 19th century onwards). Their lifespan is just too log, I suspect, for it to be likely for older societies to domesticate them, otherwise we probably would have been it, rather than the tame individuals we make do with IOTL. It is possibly, but unfortunately rather unlikely I think.
 
So we need to identify a niche not yet filled that another animal would be able to do very well in, the example of elephants and forests having been given. I have to say I am in total agreement with Achaemenid Rome over how awesome a pygmy elephant based civilisation would be!! But I have doubts as to the feasibility of actually creating a population of truly domesticated elephants (even mini ones) before the modern day (say late 19th century onwards). Their lifespan is just too log, I suspect, for it to be likely for older societies to domesticate them, otherwise we probably would have been it, rather than the tame individuals we make do with IOTL. It is possibly, but unfortunately rather unlikely I think.

Actually sexual maturity is reached in as little as 8 years and breeding opportunities can be had throughout the year.

Amongst the Forest Elephants of the Congo basin its believed that the Pygmy morphs are the result of earlier sexual maturity and breeding. I believe that is a result of higher quality diets without the bulk of grasses.

We know that with free contact elephants can be bred in captivity, we know that elephants especially young elephants can be taught by their mothers.

I for one believe domestication won't and honestly doesn't need to be complete, however societies can be built around them.

And yes, I already have the framework of an ATL around them :)
 
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