Later Swedish independence

[Kungsholmen]

What if the rebellion against Kristian during the 1500s either failed or never occurred to begin with and another rebellion started sometime during the 1700s.

How would Scandinavia have developed up until then

Who would be the leaders of such a rebellion?

Would any foreign powers support it?

What would the reaction in Denmark be?

What would the reaction in Norway be?

How would the rebellion go? could it succeed?

If so how would the relationship between Sweden and Denmark-Norway develop post independence?

How would Sweden develop after independence, who would be king? (would there even be a king?)

 

[Lalli]

Avoiding any Swedish revolt in 16th century you would need much earlier POD probably already during Margareth I's reign.

If KU manage survive to 1700 probably Denmark-Norway has managed incorporate Sweden in such level that there is not even any revolt.

How would Scandinavia have developed up until then

Really hard to say. It depends totally how KU would survive.

Who would be the leaders of such a rebellion?

Probably some local nobles. But I am not sure if such revolt ever occur.

Would any foreign powers support it?

Russia might support that. At least it would try take Finland. But others depend totally what kind of relationships them would have with KU.

What would the reaction in Denmark be?

Hardly happy.

What would the reaction in Norway be?

Probably whatever Copenhagen says. Norweigians didn't revolt even in OTL when Swedes revolted.

How would the rebellion go? could it succeed?

Probably rebel would be crushed quickly. Sweden is more incorporated so there would be more people who are loyal to Copenhagen.

If so how would the relationship between Sweden and Denmark-Norway develop post independence?

Really hard to say. There is so many changes between 1500 and 1700. Probably Denmark-Norway try re-take Sweden but there is still many possibilities.

How would Sweden develop after independence, who would be king? (would there even be a king?)

Impossible to answer. There is so many possibilities. But probably Sweden would has king. Monarchy was pretty much standard thing in Europe.

 

[Jürgen]

What if the rebellion against Kristian during the 1500s either failed or never occurred to begin with and another rebellion started sometime during the 1700s.

How would Scandinavia have developed up until then

Who would be the leaders of such a rebellion?

The problem is that it’s several centuries later with a radical different development. But with most likely suspect would be the local nobility. Alternative it could be a religious uprising, if a significant part of the Swedish population belonged to a different religion than in Denmark

Would any foreign powers support it?

yes

What would the reaction in Denmark be?

Invading Sweden, try to destroy the uprising and execute the people behind it.

What would the reaction in Norway be?

Well the Danish king would raise armies in Norway to invade Sweden, that would pretty much be their reaction.

How would the rebellion go? could it succeed?

Maybe, again there’s two centuries alternative development. I suspect there would be a lot of local support for the Danish crown with Sweden having been under Danish rule for 400 years.

If so how would the relationship between Sweden and Denmark-Norway develop post independence?

Depend on the reason for the uprising and the level of local support. But there’s important factor Sweden would use the same language standardization as Denmark, they would fundamental speak Danish. Which could give us either a UK-USA relationship or a UK-Ireland relationship

How would Sweden develop after independence, who would be king? (would there even be a king?)

Depend on why they rebel, I suspect that any uprising will be against a absolute Danish regime, so we will likely see strong estates. I also think a king is pretty much given, on the other hand they could also end up with a Stadholder who was king in everything but name like Netherlands.

 

[Kungsholmen]

The problem is that it’s several centuries later with a radical different development. But with most likely suspect would be the local nobility. Alternative it could be a religious uprising, if a significant part of the Swedish population belonged to a different religion than in Denmark



yes



Invading Sweden, try to destroy the uprising and execute the people behind it.



Well the Danish king would raise armies in Norway to invade Sweden, that would pretty much be their reaction.



Maybe, again there’s two centuries alternative development. I suspect there would be a lot of local support for the Danish crown with Sweden having been under Danish rule for 400 years.



Depend on the reason for the uprising and the level of local support. But there’s important factor Sweden would use the same language standardization as Denmark, they would fundamental speak Danish. Which could give us either a UK-USA relationship or a UK-Ireland relationship



Depend on why they rebel, I suspect that any uprising will be against a absolute Danish regime, so we will likely see strong estates. I also think a king is pretty much given, on the other hand they could also end up with a Stadholder who was king in everything but name like Netherlands.

When I asked what the reaction in Norway/Denmark would be I meant like how (broadly) different social groups would react. Perhaps Norwegian merchants would see the powers the Swedish burghers were promised and want that as well. We both agree that this revolt would try to limit the power of the king in favour of the estates.

I also find it unlikely that Swedish would be entirely replaced with Danish considering that did not happen in Norway. Norwegian as a language is and was then closer to Danish than Swedish, there are also more Swedish speakers than Norwegian speakers, all things that would make more difficult or at least take more time.

 

[Jürgen]

When I asked what the reaction in Norway/Denmark would be I meant like how (broadly) different social groups would react. Perhaps Norwegian merchants would see the powers the Swedish burghers were promised and want that as well. We both agree that this revolt would try to limit the power of the king in favour of the estates.

I also find it unlikely that Swedish would be entirely replaced with Danish considering that did not happen in Norway. Norwegian as a language is and was then closer to Danish than Swedish, there are also more Swedish speakers than Norwegian speakers, all things that would make more difficult or at least take more time.

Norwegian was in fact almost completely replaced with Danish, modern Bokmål is simply Danish with a slightly different spelling and a few Norwegian words and Danish words no longer used in Danish, while Nynorsk have seen a almost complete replacement of vocabulary with Danish vocabulary. The difference between Norwegian and Danish is a result of two centuries of disconnect between the two “languages”

Swedish which is a closer related language to Danish than pre-Danish rule Norwegian would see the same process. Swedish would keep the accent most places (we could likely imagine that some regions would adopt some aspect of Danish pronouncement)[1], but written language would build on the Danish bible and much of the vocabulary would have been replaced. 300 year later Swedish would likely have become rather distinct again (unless we saw a re-standardization toward a common Scandinavian language), but it would still far more readable for a modern Dane than for a modern Swede, while Swedes would likely better understand it except for the use of a lot of Danish vocabulary.

[1]Danish pronouncement comes from the dialect (the so-called Rigsdansk) traditional spoken in Copenhagen (and pre-conquest/pre-ethnic cleansed Malmö) and was a mix of Zealandic and Scanian this dialects did already in the 16-17th century replace the local pronouncement spoken in eastern Jutland and some of the dialects spoken in Eastern Jutland outside Aarhus (Aarhus have it own dialect which have been heavier influenced by other Jutish dialects) gives us a good idea of how traditional Rigsdansk sounded. It was less mumbled (through it still is somewhat mumbled) and softer than the modern dialects Copenhageners speak today, which Swedes in general think is how Danish sounds like.