Late Lamented France

I had an idea for a timeline called capet's sorrow where France ceased to exist at one point before 17th century. It was not a castastrophic event but rather a slow erosion so that there was no power vacuum to be filled.

I'm still a bit fuzzy about the timeline and exactly how the land is divided (though I know for sure I don't want the outline of France in OTL to be seen on the map). I know the following:

- Normandy: the Angevins finished the "War of French Succession" (ATL hundred years war) in a stalemate. They renounced to the French throne in exchange for recognition of Normandy as a kingdom.

- Toulouse: Joined Aragon (which didn't get linked to spain) after a failed Albigensean crusade.

- Alsace-Loraine: Part of Germany

- Savoy: Part of Italy

- Eastern France: part of Burgundy

My big problem is what to do with with central France (the grey part on the map below). I don't want it to become a France in all but name. Guyenne might have become independent after spending some time as part of England or have linked up with Castilia.

So, does anyone have any suggestions ?

capet-sorrow-map1.png
 
Well, the southwest bit bordering Castilia is the French part of Basque Country; you could have then develop their own nation. Might even have them expand a bit to the north, due to the chaos of various wars. I haven't seen many TLs where the Basque make it big (in fact, I'm not sure I've seen any). That wont necessarily cover the whole grey area, but its a start.

EDIT: In the north, bordering the Netherlands, you've got Wallonia, the southern part of OTL Belgium. They could well expand to the south. Not sure if Flanders is part of the Netherlands on that map, or not. Might be mostly part of Normandy.
 
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OK, first question: d'you want this moved to "Before 1900" or do you mean it to reflect twentieth-century reality? Because in that case I'm afraid it would have to go to ASB. It is extremely unlikely that Italy, the United Kingdom, or the Netherlands would exist if France had not been there.

Secondly: consider the possibility of the Angevin territories acquiring some sort of independence. Ditto for Gascony. Remember that historically, Burgundian territory went up all the way into the Low Countries. instead of an ill-defined and improbable Germany, why not have the Burgundian dynasty own a larger chunk of NE France? Of course there is just as likely not to be a Burgundian dynasty, but that's butterflies for you.

Your real problem is the Ile de France, the traditional heartland. I can't see the Frankish/French identity dying out, and it is a good power base. I guess the best approach here is political fragmentation. There will still be "France", it just won't be France.
 
I put it in the wrong section, sorry. How do I move threads ?

I should have pointed out that the names on the map were mostly for ease of discussion, its not meant as a final one.

I had the same problem with Ile-de-france. My working theory is that the last king of France (when France was reduced to the Royal Domain) died without a male heir and his daughter married into another royal family, leaving france to be part of another country.
 
It might need a really early pod.
Agreed, you need a Medieval POD, which of course would butterfly the Netherlands away. I thing the best guess would be a stronger Angevin empire remaining united with England, but never bothering to conquer France. That would get rid of the rest, while you could give a large part of the east to Burgundy. To get rid of the centre? That is hard. Maybe a POD during the 100-year war? England and Burgundy decide to divide France among themselves? Seems unlikely as the English king wanted to become king of France. France would still exist and possibly even be stronger than OTL France, as it has the English resources too. After the Middle Ages I don't see any way. France is just way too big, strong and rich for it to just disappear.

You could of course get a even earlier POD and let France balkanise, just like Germany did during the Middle Ages, and never unite the prinicipalities (unlike Germany), which get either gobbled up by stronger neighbours or remain Luxemburg (or even Monaco) sized countries.
 
I put it in the wrong section, sorry. How do I move threads ?

I should have pointed out that the names on the map were mostly for ease of discussion, its not meant as a final one.

I had the same problem with Ile-de-france. My working theory is that the last king of France (when France was reduced to the Royal Domain) died without a male heir and his daughter married into another royal family, leaving france to be part of another country.
Even if the english king manage to get the french crown he'll move his court to France. Burgondy as well. You wouldn't have OTL France but there would still be a France.
 
Even if the english king manage to get the french crown he'll move his court to France. Burgondy as well. You wouldn't have OTL France but there would still be a France.
It depends how strong the French throne is. If a French king has no autority in Champagne, Toulouse, Normandy, etc and merely in the Iles the France, the English king would remain seated in London, as England would clearly be the better part of his kingdom. Being king of France would just be another title the English kings would have.
 
Agreed, you need a Medieval POD, which of course would butterfly the Netherlands away. I thing the best guess would be a stronger Angevin empire remaining united with England, but never bothering to conquer France. That would get rid of the rest, while you could give a large part of the east to Burgundy. To get rid of the centre? That is hard. Maybe a POD during the 100-year war? England and Burgundy decide to divide France among themselves? Seems unlikely as the English king wanted to become king of France. France would still exist and possibly even be stronger than OTL France, as it has the English resources too. After the Middle Ages I don't see any way. France is just way too big, strong and rich for it to just disappear.

You could of course get a even earlier POD and let France balkanise, just like Germany did during the Middle Ages, and never unite the prinicipalities (unlike Germany), which get either gobbled up by stronger neighbours or remain Luxemburg (or even Monaco) sized countries.
Even so it would need a pre Charlemagne pod.
 
Even so it would need a pre Charlemagne pod.
I don't know. Before Philipe Augustus France was pretty decentralised, like Germany was. If you can continue that and even strengthen that effect. But you are right, you need a POD very early in the Middle Ages.
 
I don't know. Before Philipe Augustus France was pretty decentralised, like Germany was. If you can continue that and even strengthen that effect. But you are right, you need a POD very early in the Middle Ages.
Such a POD would have so mutch butterfly I don't think their would be anything reconizable.
 
Well, the southwest bit bordering Castilia is the French part of Basque Country; you could have then develop their own nation. Might even have them expand a bit to the north, due to the chaos of various wars. I haven't seen many TLs where the Basque make it big (in fact, I'm not sure I've seen any). That wont necessarily cover the whole grey area, but its a start.

Take a look at Thande's Look to the West, a recent update had formerly Russo-Lithuanian Navarre basically turn into an independent Basque State in the 1830s.
 
I thought about a basque country but have had problem finding demographic numbers about ethnic basques in Guyenne/gascogne/euskadi/pas-basque.
 
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