Lasting Dominion of Soissons?

If Syagrius defeats Clovis' Franks, the domain of Soissons could last longer.

As for the effects of this, I'm not sure...
 
Syagrius would need to defeat Clovis and the Franks. The best case scenario I can see is having Clovis and most of his army killed and or mortally wounded. You would probably have set the stage for the foundation of an independent Gallo-Roman state instead of a heavily Romanized Frankish kingdom. The remaining Frankish survivors might end up being conquered or become vassals to Syagrius who might take up the title of dux or rex to show his new title.
 
I'm not sure this particular entity would make much of an impact on the oveall social/cultural climate of Gaul. Yes, it's always mentioned as the "last fragment of western Rome", but how different was late-Roman Gaul from early Francia? Not very. Even the language wouldn't be much affected: remember that even in the Carolingian era it's not terribly clear where Vulgar Latin ends and Old French begins. How about feudalism and manorialism? There are arguments that things were trending that way anyway with the breakdown of Roman bureaucracy.

Politically, though, if Syagrius' forces were able to hold their own against the bulk of the Franks, there could be big implications. Soissons' territory was more-or-less the Frankish heartland in the Merovingian years, so for it to survive you'd essentially have to re-imagine early medieval Europe without a large Frankish state, or one where the Franks set up shop somewhere else.
 
I'm not sure this particular entity would make much of an impact on the oveall social/cultural climate of Gaul. Yes, it's always mentioned as the "last fragment of western Rome", but how different was late-Roman Gaul from early Francia? Not very. Even the language wouldn't be much affected: remember that even in the Carolingian era it's not terribly clear where Vulgar Latin ends and Old French begins. How about feudalism and manorialism? There are arguments that things were trending that way anyway with the breakdown of Roman bureaucracy.

Politically, though, if Syagrius' forces were able to hold their own against the bulk of the Franks, there could be big implications. Soissons' territory was more-or-less the Frankish heartland in the Merovingian years, so for it to survive you'd essentially have to re-imagine early medieval Europe without a large Frankish state, or one where the Franks set up shop somewhere else.

The ATL Gallo-Roman language in this scenario might not have much of a Germanic linguistic influence if the Franks are knocked down. I don't see Syagrius' Roman remnant having the strength to expand into the lands of the other Germanic tribes as did the Franks under Clovis and his successors. The Gallo-Romans still would have to deal with the Visigothic Kingdom in their south.
 
The ATL Gallo-Roman language in this scenario might not have much of a Germanic linguistic influence if the Franks are knocked down. I don't see Syagrius' Roman remnant having the strength to expand into the lands of the other Germanic tribes as did the Franks under Clovis and his successors. The Gallo-Romans still would have to deal with the Visigothic Kingdom in their south.
To be fair, French doesn't have much of a Germanic influence in OTL, either.
But I agree that Syagrius wouldn't be able to expand as Clovis was able to in OTL. But assuming the Franks collapse into civil war after Clovis is killed, the Gallo-Romans would be given some breathing room. Perhaps a future generation would be able to defeat the Visigoths and claim southern Gaul, and expand in other areas as well.
 
Another impediment to their success is the lack of a Gallo-Roman identity at this point. They would need a rest to institutionalize a king or duke and a state to identify with. Having their people think "I am a Roman of the Realm of Soissons" gives them a lot more staying power.
 
I'm not sure this particular entity would make much of an impact on the oveall social/cultural climate of Gaul. Yes, it's always mentioned as the "last fragment of western Rome", but how different was late-Roman Gaul from early Francia? Not very. Even the language wouldn't be much affected: remember that even in the Carolingian era it's not terribly clear where Vulgar Latin ends and Old French begins. How about feudalism and manorialism? There are arguments that things were trending that way anyway with the breakdown of Roman bureaucracy.

Politically, though, if Syagrius' forces were able to hold their own against the bulk of the Franks, there could be big implications. Soissons' territory was more-or-less the Frankish heartland in the Merovingian years, so for it to survive you'd essentially have to re-imagine early medieval Europe without a large Frankish state, or one where the Franks set up shop somewhere else.

Quite correct on the language front. The real turning point was when Alcuin, disgusted at what he saw as a vulgarization of the Latin tongue on the continent, started up a grammatical program that forcibly returned court-Latin back to Silver Age Latin. Up to that point, Latin that everyone spoke was on that was very much affected by local dialects.
 
Perhaps one possibility is for Childeric to remain in exile, allowing Aegidius to continue to rule the Salian Franks in his place, and consequently meaning that the alliance between them continues, rather than Clovis ending it, and Soissons taking over the Salians rather than vice-versa. If this continues then it could be that Zeno bestows legitimacy to him rather than Odoacer.
 
Perhaps one possibility is for Childeric to remain in exile, allowing Aegidius to continue to rule the Salian Franks in his place, and consequently meaning that the alliance between them continues, rather than Clovis ending it, and Soissons taking over the Salians rather than vice-versa. If this continues then it could be that Zeno bestows legitimacy to him rather than Odoacer.

:eek: Forgive me, but since I'm Dutch, I'm also concerned about the effect of this on the Low Countries, especially the Dutch speaking part, since the Salian Franks lived in this area and furthermore Dutch is for a large part derived (I hope that's the correct term:)) from (Germanic) Frankish. And because of this I naturally don't fancy a takeover of the Salian Franks by Soissons, which doesn't make it less interesting, but I find it personally less likeable;).

And IOTL it took a while before the Frankish nobility became French, there even was a period were the Southern Frankish nobility (living in the Gallo-Roman part of Northern France) sent their children to their relatives in the Germanic Frankish part of the realm...
 
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:eek: Forgive me, but since I'm Dutch, I'm also concerned about the effect of this on the Low Countries, especially the Dutch speaking part, since the Salian Franks lived in this area and furthermore Dutch is for a large part derived (I hope that's the correct term:)) from (Germanic) Frankish. And because of this I naturally don't fancy a takeover of the Salian Franks by Soissons, which doesn't make it less interesting, but I find it personally less likeable;).

And IOTL it took a while before the Frankish nobility became French, there even was a period were the Southern Frankish nobility (living in the Gallo-Roman part of Northern France) sent their children to their relatives in the Germanic Frankish part of the realm...

I can't see the Salian Franks being conquered. More like vassalized at most and have them continue to settle in the Low Countries though that means trouble for the Frisians.
 
Franks are just too many to be fully integrated at short term.
But, with a northen broder secured, Sygarius could led a roman sucessor state between Somme and Loire.
Then, or it become a visigothic protectorate, or Sygarius (or descendent if we admit this state would be stable) can beat Burgonds and pearaphs Alemani, and the state could retake Lyons, allowing a more latin late gallo-roman culture, more linked to meridionals ones as occitano-roman or italo-roman.
 
Franks are just too many to be fully integrated at short term.
But, with a northen broder secured, Sygarius could led a roman sucessor state between Somme and Loire.
Then, or it become a visigothic protectorate, or Sygarius (or descendent if we admit this state would be stable) can beat Burgonds and pearaphs Alemani, and the state could retake Lyons, allowing a more latin late gallo-roman culture, more linked to meridionals ones as occitano-roman or italo-roman.

I always wondered if Sygarius if he managed to repel the Franks from conquering his domain would he try to establish contacts with the likes of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Romano-Moorish Kingdom in North Africa.
 
Probably not.
Sygarius isn't a roman emperor-wannabe. It's just the leader of gallo-romans of the north. Mauretania or Constantinople are too far for him and aren't in his minds. And an alligeance under Constantinople would reduce greatly his power, the imperators didn't used to share power.

If Sygarius managed to conquer sufficient territories in Gaul, maybe Constantinople could gave him the title of Consul, as Clovis OTL.
But it will necessite real conquests, durables ones and real defeats for his ennemies. (A great victory against visigoths would be likely useful).
But, except this nominal link, manage to unite gallo-romans (aka northen gallo-romans) would be sufficient wor for didn't think about other roman sucessor states.
 
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