Largest possible United States

As what the continental U.S was already decided within this period, could it have been larger?

Rules:
As many PoD's as possible are allowed to make the U.S larger. Not limited to the Americas
 
I have sometimes wondered if the acquisition of Canada at the right time would have pushed the South to heavily push for taking as much Mexican territory as possible. I believe states carved out of Canada would have been abolitionist.
 
With Canada under U.S control, and as you said, those states would have a high chance of being abolitionist, the Mexican cession would probably be the northern half, if not all of Mexico at the time, then the Civil War would also involve the Mexican states at the side of the CSA, I presume?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
OTL American rhetoric was that the Americas were theirs by right - Manifest Destiny - but I doubt the heartlands of Mexico could be incorporated without some problems since that area was really quite well populated. (Mexico 7 million in 1840 as against 17 million for the US in the same year.) Later is easier population wise.

I could see the rough area of the USCA being absorbed, though, along with most of the Caribbean which doesn't fly a British flag. (Tangling with the RN would be considerably harder for most of the expansionary period of the US.)

Further than that gets increasingly difficult. Canada's possible, depending on timing - in the revolution itself might be easiest, but the Quebec Problem might then impede further US growth so it's hard to say.

The trick is statehood, though, for any southern expansion. I mean, Puerto Rico isn't one now...
 
I have sometimes wondered if the acquisition of Canada at the right time would have pushed the South to heavily push for taking as much Mexican territory as possible. I believe states carved out of Canada would have been abolitionist.
Probably this, coupled with an annexation of Cuba early on, leads to a more maritime US. Maybe it moves into Africa.
 
There's no chance in the USA getting into Africa. It simply has no interest in the place, and there's no reason to have an interest. Maximum extent is OTL USA, Canada, northern Mexico, Caribbean, Panama.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
North Atlantic - Greenland, certainly; SP&M and

There's no chance in the USA getting into Africa. It simply has no interest in the place, and there's no reason to have an interest. Maximum extent is OTL USA, Canada, northern Mexico, Caribbean, Panama.

North Atlantic as well, and actually much more likely than Mexico south of the (historical) Cession territories, Central America, and/or the Caribbean - Greenland, certainly; SP&M and Iceland, possibly.

In the period when the US was truly expanding (1783-1900, say), it's worth noting that most of the territories the US bought, conquered, or annexed with an eye towards keeping had very low population densities. Puerto Rico is the only real outlier.

The US, since the Revolution, generally had a pretty straightforward path of unorganized territory, organized territory, statehood; the "dependency/protectorate" concept of commonwealths or insular possesions came along pretty late, and (arguably) commonwealth status was a stepping stone to independence.

Hence, the liklihood of a "greater" US is pretty much going to be the territories in North America where there were not a lot of people, or if there were, they were willing to become "Americans" without too much conflict.

In a general sense, of course.

Best,
 
This projects into the 20th century, but remember when Boris Yeltzin semi-seriously offered to sell Siberia to the U.S.

Russia needed cash, and it didn't have enough to extract oil from the area. Bush decided that buying half of the former Soviet Union would be akin to dancing on its grave, and he didn't like that look for his legacy.

Say Bush is pressed to go ahead and get the oil. The U.S. more than doubles in size. That's a pretty good 'Largest possible.'
 
- US annexes Canada in ARW or War of 1812

- Successes in Canada mean that by the Manifest Destiny rhetoric rolls around, virtually all mainstream political parties are receptive to it

- Texas settlement, Revolution, and Republic more or less as OTL

- Mex-Am war results in total annexation of Mexico due to North-South balancing act politics and general enthusiasm for Manifest Destiny expansionism

(On a side note, I think Franco-Prussian War will go as OTL-- French still get the warning signs from the Austro-Prussian War, (Prussian army is strong) but doesn't get any of the warning signs about the weakness of its own forces gleaned from the adventures in Mexico.)

- Civil war eventually breaks out, won by Union

- Dominican Republic annexed some time in 1870s similar to OTL's proposal, Liberia likely annexed along similar lines.

- Spanish-American war goes more or less as OTL, but Cuba is annexed outright within a decade of the Treaty of Paris.

- Banana Wars and other assorted C. American occupations lead to annexation of virtually all of Central America and Haiti by the end of WW1

- US purchases St. Thomas and Virgin Islands from Denmark, as OTL, but is also able to buy Greenland by convincing Denmark that it needs extra money to build up military forces in event of either CP or Entente invasion, and that Greenland could be used for the basing of German U-boats, or for the basing of RN vessels intended to interdict US-European trade in the event that US enters WW1 on CP side. At this point, US public opinion could go either way-- Germans have invaded Belgium as OTL and British maintain a near monopoly on propaganda, but Germany never reinstates USW and public opinion instead shifts to how British blockade of Germany is starving thousands of innocent German civilians- and hurting the US economy.

- Eventually, the British do something stupid. This coupled with a desire to seize Entente territories in both the Pacific and the Carribean lead to US declaring war on the Entente.

- Main purpose of US forces is to divert Entente attention away from Europe- US seizes Belize, British Guayana, French Guayana, St. Pierre and Miquelon, Bermuda, and all Entente territories in the Carribean. US forces in Liberia invade Entente possessions in Africa. US forces in Pacific reclaim occupied German territories (minus Kiautschou Bay) and seize Entente possessions in the Pacific.

- Imperial Russian forces seize Svalbard (which, at the time, I believe, was more or less owned by Norway (which remains neutral) but would not be officially so until the 1920 Paris Peace Conference) as a stepping stone to seizing US-held Greenland.

- US forces are eventually able to take Svalbard, and one of the last actions undertaken before Russia's withdrawal is a US operation to take Franz Josef land.

- the CPs + US win WW1. In the peace settlement, the US gains all its Carribean/American conquests, granting it control over Belize, SP&M, French Guayana, Bermuda, and all Entente Carribean territories.

In Africa, Sierra Leone is annexed to Liberia, a US territory.

In the Arctic, a US-Norwegian condominium is established over Svalbard, while the US gains full control over Franz Josef Land.

In the Pacific, the US gains all Entente Pacific islands, including the Japanese Bonin and Marcus Is., the French Clipperton Is., and all those other central Pacific islands that I can't be bothered to name. The peace settlement returns Germany's Pacific possessions to Germany, (minus Tsingtao, which remains in the hands of Japan) and adds British New Guinea to German New Guinea, but Germany decides to sell those possessions to the United States after the conclusion of negotiations.

- Some time after WW1, the US needs to sell its New Guinean territories to the Netherlands in exchange for the Dutch Carribean and Dutch Guayana. Some money may also need to be ceded to the Netherlands in order to lubricate the deal.

- The US should also try and cultivate good relations with Albania. Assuming such attempts are successful, the US may be able to annex Albania via referendum in the late 20th century.
 
Last edited:
The USA annexing all of Mexico is just ASB when put out so simply, I think having it basically an American puppet is possible but having it integrated in the American political system as other states? No way.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
- US annexes Canada in ARW or War of 1812

- Successes in Canada mean that by the Manifest Destiny rhetoric rolls around, virtually all mainstream political parties are receptive to it

- Texas settlement, Revolution, and Republic more or less as OTL

- Mex-Am war results in total annexation of Mexico due to North-South balancing act politics and general enthusiasm for Manifest Destiny expansionism

(On a side note, I think Franco-Prussian War will go as OTL-- French still get the warning signs from the Austro-Prussian War, (Prussian army is strong) but doesn't get any of the warning signs about the weakness of its own forces gleaned from the adventures in Mexico.)

- Civil war eventually breaks out, won by Union

- Dominican Republic annexed some time in 1870s similar to OTL's proposal, Liberia likely annexed along similar lines.

- Spanish-American war goes more or less as OTL, but Cuba is annexed outright within a decade of the Treaty of Paris.

- Banana Wars and other assorted C. American occupations lead to annexation of virtually all of Central America by the end of WW1

- US purchases St. Thomas and Virgin Islands from Denmark, as OTL, but is also able to buy Greenland by convincing Denmark that it needs extra money to build up military forces in event of either CP or Entente invasion, and that Greenland could be used for the basing of German U-boats, or for the basing of RN vessels intended to interdict US-European trade in the event that US enters WW1 on CP side. At this point, US public opinion could go either way-- Germans have invaded Belgium as OTL and British maintain a near monopoly on propaganda, but Germany never reinstates USW and public opinion instead shifts to how British blockade of Germany is starving thousands of innocent German civilians- and hurting the US economy.

- Eventually, the British do something stupid. This coupled with a desire to seize Entente territories in both the Pacific and the Carribean lead to US declaring war on the Entente.

- Main purpose of US forces is to divert Entente attention away from Europe- US seizes Belize, British Guayana, French Guayana, St. Pierre and Miquelon, Bermuda, and all Entente territories in the Carribean. US forces in Liberia invade Entente possessions in Africa. US forces in Pacific reclaim occupied German territories (minus Kiautschou Bay) and seize Entente possessions in the Pacific.

- Imperial Russian forces seize Svalbard (which, at the time, I believe, was more or less owned by Norway (which remains neutral) but would not be officially so until the 1920 Paris Peace Conference) as a stepping stone to seizing US-held Greenland.

- US forces are eventually able to take Svalbard, and one of the last actions undertaken before Russia's withdrawal is a US operation to take Franz Josef land.

- the CPs + US win WW1. In the peace settlement, the US gains all its Carribean/American conquests, granting it control over Belize, SP&M, French Guayana, Bermuda, and all Entente Carribean territories.

In Africa, Sierra Leone is annexed to Liberia, a US territory.

In the Arctic, a US-Norwegian condominium is established over Svalbard, while the US gains full control over Franz Josef Land.

In the Pacific, the US gains all Entente Pacific islands, including the Japanese Bonin and Marcus Is., the French Clipperton Is., and all those other central Pacific islands that I can't be bothered to name. The peace settlement returns Germany's Pacific possessions to Germany, (minus Tsingtao, which remains in the hands of Japan) and adds British New Guinea to German New Guinea, but Germany decides to sell those possessions to the United States after the conclusion of negotiations.

- Some time after WW1, the US needs to sell its New Guinean territories to the Netherlands in exchange for the Dutch Carribean and Dutch Guayana. Some money may also need to be ceded to the Netherlands in order to lubricate the deal.

- The US should also try and cultivate good relations with Albania. Assuming such attempts are successful, the US may be able to annex Albania via referendum in the late 20th century.


Uh...

Apart from anything else, why is there still a recognizable WW1?
 
v6AHC1e.png

I think continental USA would look like this in one of the best case scenario.
 
This projects into the 20th century, but remember when Boris Yeltzin semi-seriously offered to sell Siberia to the U.S.

Russia needed cash, and it didn't have enough to extract oil from the area. Bush decided that buying half of the former Soviet Union would be akin to dancing on its grave, and he didn't like that look for his legacy.

Say Bush is pressed to go ahead and get the oil. The U.S. more than doubles in size. That's a pretty good 'Largest possible.'

That would also enourmously complicate American relations with China as well, as the Chinese are already uncomfortable with American bases in South Korea. They would completely flip their shit at the thought of sharing a direct border with the United States.
 
Top