Largest possible Prussia, Smallest possible Austria?

Just as it says: How to make the largest possible Prussia by the mid 19th century, and the smallest possible Austria by around the same time?

And just to keep it from getting ridiculous, POD no earlier than 1700.

I'd like to read some brief tls and/or see some maps if anyone has any lying around (or would like to make one).

Thanks in advance.
 

MSZ

Banned
Reducing Austria is simple - seeing that it was always a multinational empire, it's collapse could be triggered much earlier due to nationalism. Hungary seceding at any point (revolution or a war lost by the Habsburgs to anyone), Galicia remiaining polish/becoming russian (same reasons as above), Czechia becoming a seperate kingdom under Habsburg rule thanks to some "compromise", etc. Different 1848 revolution could grant you that, as well as different Napoleonic Wars. I don't think it could get smaller than it is at presesnt though, maybe a successfull hungarian revolt could get them Burgenland, but that would be it. IIRC, a plan like the one above was suggested as early as the Silesian Wars, though I suppose a long, devastating war with Turkey in the early XVIII could lead to it too.

As for Prussia, I don't see any reasons for which it couldn't simply annex all the territories in the North German Union and Saxony even - essentially all protestant lands in Northern Germany. It would require a Prussowank, though with an early PoD eliminating Austria as competition as dominante power in Germany it's enterly possible.

So let's say the War of Austrian Succession goes very very bad for Austria, with the Ottoman Empire opportunistically joining into the war to capture Hungary, and succeding. Hungary and Croatia become turkish vassals, Prussia captures Silesia, Czechia revolts and introduces a Hohenzollern to the throne. Austria also loses any influence it had in North Italy to France, it becomes an irrelevent state ruled by a small noble family. Prussia gets a free hand in North Germany, anywhere where France cannot prevent it's expansion. And should France suffer a great defeat at any point, allowing Prussia to capture the Rheinland, you could see it annexing Elsass-Lotharingen as well.
 
What are you counting as "Prussia" and "Austria"? IOTL's German Empire could arguably be a "Prussia", as Prussia was by far the dominant state, and "Austria" could conceivably be applied to any Hapsburg rump-state.

To the extreme, a Frankfurt Congress Germany with the King of Prussia in charge could be "Prussia", and the remaining Slavo-Hungarian state "Austria"
 
Reducing Austria is simple - seeing that it was always a multinational empire, it's collapse could be triggered much earlier due to nationalism. Hungary seceding at any point (revolution or a war lost by the Habsburgs to anyone), Galicia remiaining polish/becoming russian (same reasons as above), Czechia becoming a seperate kingdom under Habsburg rule thanks to some "compromise", etc. Different 1848 revolution could grant you that, as well as different Napoleonic Wars. I don't think it could get smaller than it is at presesnt though, maybe a successfull hungarian revolt could get them Burgenland, but that would be it. IIRC, a plan like the one above was suggested as early as the Silesian Wars, though I suppose a long, devastating war with Turkey in the early XVIII could lead to it too.

As for Prussia, I don't see any reasons for which it couldn't simply annex all the territories in the North German Union and Saxony even - essentially all protestant lands in Northern Germany. It would require a Prussowank, though with an early PoD eliminating Austria as competition as dominante power in Germany it's enterly possible.

So let's say the War of Austrian Succession goes very very bad for Austria, with the Ottoman Empire opportunistically joining into the war to capture Hungary, and succeding. Hungary and Croatia become turkish vassals, Prussia captures Silesia, Czechia revolts and introduces a Hohenzollern to the throne. Austria also loses any influence it had in North Italy to France, it becomes an irrelevent state ruled by a small noble family. Prussia gets a free hand in North Germany, anywhere where France cannot prevent it's expansion. And should France suffer a great defeat at any point, allowing Prussia to capture the Rheinland, you could see it annexing Elsass-Lotharingen as well.

Very nice! Sounds like an inevitable Grossdeutschland TL.
 
What are you counting as "Prussia" and "Austria"? IOTL's German Empire could arguably be a "Prussia", as Prussia was by far the dominant state, and "Austria" could conceivably be applied to any Hapsburg rump-state.

To the extreme, a Frankfurt Congress Germany with the King of Prussia in charge could be "Prussia", and the remaining Slavo-Hungarian state "Austria"

I was trying to keep it with the name Prussia and not Germany. Though the Frankfurt Assembly could work if it were plausible. I've seen a lot of chatter on here to the contrary.
 
I think France staying allied with Prussia would probably be a useful step. Especially if Austria were still to have a falling out with Britain and wound up ally-less. Then maybe add in a Hungarian and Czech revolution and France not having a revolution so it can slice up the Hapsburg realms.

For more detail see Dimension 398.:D
 
I was trying to keep it with the name Prussia and not Germany.

If you wanna keep the name Prussia, there's a strong limit to how much expansion can be done into the remaining German states, then. Prussia-not-Germany is going to have to look north and east to expand, barring a slice of Africa if that counts.

I seem to recall a proposal for Prussia to entirely annex Denmark at the end of the Second Schleswig-Holstein war. Obviously this is ASB, but if it happened, Prussia would be facing off against Sweden, with more potential gains.

Less unlikely would be facing off against Russia for the Baltics and/or more Poland.
 
As has been mentioned before, OTL is already a Prussowank and you can't get much further without Prussia just renaming itself Germany. However, you could have an alternate Prussowank using the 1795 borders as a starting point, but you'd need the change the course of French expansionism.

As for Austria, I've a TL that seems to be going in that direction, though I haven't updated in a while.
 

MSZ

Banned
Very nice! Sounds like an inevitable Grossdeutschland TL.

Thanks, though my intention was for a larger "Kingdom of Prussia" to co-exist with a small "Austria" - hence me mentioning it annexing northern, protestant german lands. As Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy said, Prussia lucked out immensly in OTL, so having it go become even more succesfull is tricky - especially if it is not to become the German Empire/North German Union etc. The long Habsburg - France's conflict was what in a way saved Prussia, as its attention was always placed in the south and eastern areas of the HRE, allowing Prussia to rise unnoticed in the Northeast. Terminating Austria might cause France to try to dominate the HRE wholesale, placing it at odds with Prussia as well.

I don't recall Prussia having a very succesfull dynasty policies (the Habsburgs and Wettins were much better at it.), but perhaps with neither Saxony or Austria being a threat, the Hohenzollerns could go that way? Place one of their own in Oldenburg in 1733, seal the Prussia - Mecklenburg Union by somehow terminating the Mecklenburgians rites of succession in the early XIX century, annex all of Saxony following the Napoleonic Wars (if it occurs in this timeline that is). Denmark is another option, as is grabbing more of Poland. Prussia would need British support in doing all of that however - I can't imagin either France or Russia allowing Prussia to expand so much without intervenig at some point.
 
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