Largest Possible Pre-War Nazi Germany

The Italian army would be aided by the Austrian Army, including the supporters of the Dolfuss regime and the legitimate government of Austria. There is absolutely no way that the UK and France would view Germany as anything but the aggressor. The Italians fighting the Germans is a whole different animal then Ethiopia. The native population may be split, but there was significant support for the Fatherland Front and the continued independence of Austria.
 
The Italian army would be aided by the Austrian Army, including the supporters of the Dolfuss regime and the legitimate government of Austria. There is absolutely no way that the UK and France would view Germany as anything but the aggressor. The Italians fighting the Germans is a whole different animal then Ethiopia. The native population may be split, but there was significant support for the Fatherland Front and the continued independence of Austria.

My POD is based on the assumption that a pro German but not openly in favor of imediate unification movement seizes power in Austria with Army and popular support. This is not what happened in 1934, wich is why it's a POD. If you're assuming that Austria retains OTL government there is no need for Italian intervention and nothing that follows in my posts makes sense.
Summarising, my TL is:
Austria changes colour. Exiled Austrians ask for Italian help. Italy invades Austria as per Plan 34 K. Austria fights back and ask for German help. German forces enter Austria to help stop Italian invasion. Italians are stoped eventually, Germans counter attack and pull them back out of Austria. Peace agreement. Later plebiscite is held, unification ensues.
 
My POD is based on the assumption that a pro German but not openly in favor of imediate unification movement seizes power in Austria with Army and popular support. This is not what happened in 1934, wich is why it's a POD. If you're assuming that Austria retains OTL government there is no need for Italian intervention and nothing that follows in my posts makes sense.
Summarising, my TL is:
Austria changes colour. Exiled Austrians ask for Italian help. Italy invades Austria as per Plan 34 K. Austria fights back and ask for German help. German forces enter Austria to help stop Italian invasion. Italians are stoped eventually, Germans counter attack and pull them back out of Austria. Peace agreement. Later plebiscite is held, unification ensues.

Ah. You would really need a different and earlier POD for that.
 
Ah. You would really need a different and earlier POD for that.

It would require some ground setting work for sure. This was a response to somebody else's question about the possibility and implications of a war btw Germany and Italy over Austria in 1934. I think there would only be a war if the assumptions I detailed above were present, and that the outcome would actually be favourable for the Nazis allowing them a more favourable route for an AH WW2. (wich, like I said at the time, the nazis, being nazis, would still loose).
The general economic mess in Europe after the the great crash would probably provide the background for a political POD to both accelerate four years and incrise the popularity of the Austrian National Socialist Movement.
Regarding force levels, the German army went from 100 000 to 300 000 men in 35 very rapidly and without loss of quality, clearly showing how well the expansion gene had been built into its DNA from the 20s...
 
It would require some ground setting work for sure. This was a response to somebody else's question about the possibility and implications of a war btw Germany and Italy over Austria in 1934. I think there would only be a war if the assumptions I detailed above were present, and that the outcome would actually be favourable for the Nazis allowing them a more favourable route for an AH WW2. (wich, like I said at the time, the nazis, being nazis, would still loose).
The general economic mess in Europe after the the great crash would probably provide the background for a political POD to both accelerate four years and incrise the popularity of the Austrian National Socialist Movement.
Regarding force levels, the German army went from 100 000 to 300 000 men in 35 very rapidly and without loss of quality, clearly showing how well the expansion gene had been built into its DNA from the 20s...
There is no test on the quality of the army, as the only military action they had was against Poland, in 1939. For instance, it is commonly held that the Czechs could've left quite a dent in the Germans in 1938.
 
My POD is based on the assumption that a pro German but not openly in favor of imediate unification movement seizes power in Austria with Army and popular support. This is not what happened in 1934, wich is why it's a POD. If you're assuming that Austria retains OTL government there is no need for Italian intervention and nothing that follows in my posts makes sense.
Summarising, my TL is:
Austria changes colour. Exiled Austrians ask for Italian help. Italy invades Austria as per Plan 34 K. Austria fights back and ask for German help. German forces enter Austria to help stop Italian invasion. Italians are stoped eventually, Germans counter attack and pull them back out of Austria. Peace agreement. Later plebiscite is held, unification ensues.

No on many level; first the union between both nation was explicity forbidden by Versailles so don't expect any international chastise of Italy for blocking this; you can say that nobody see Germany as a menace but nobody was real happy of any expansion of it, sure they can live with it...to a certain degree but if somebodyelse block it, well they surely don't shed a tear and probably root for him.
German forces are good sure, but are not ninja, gods or chuck norris...they are an untested, green army still underequipped, without armour or any mechanized forces and the air force is not existent so they will start with a lot of handicap and they probably don't have the time for adress it (and regarding the italian air force, this time the logistical situation is a lot better, plus there are target to hit in Germany as Ethiopia really lacked that)...there is a reason for Adolf don't try this in OTL when Italy stepped in.
The problem is that you expect a brief and limited war and later is business as usual, well forget it, Benny cannot permit to be humiliated in a so blatant mode and let an hostile nation inglobe a nation in his sphere of inlufence who border Italy and can try some revendication (Sud Tirol), so the werchmatch will soon not face a simple expeditionary corps but the rest of the italian armed forces, that for all their faults...are still in better condition and better equipped than their german counterparts, not forgetting that they outnumber them and Italy had an air forces.
A war between Italy and Germany over Austria in the 34-36 timeframe mean that Germany has is ass kicked brutally, Hitler get deflated a lot and WWII as we know it is averted.
 
1. The German army 1920/35 was not a small army. It was a professional core designed from the onset to expand into a large world beating army. Everybody was trained, and trained very well, to assume responsibilities two ranks above. The one thing that takes time to increase an army's size is trainning officers and NCOs. The Germans had basically an whole army of potencial high quality officers and NCOs. You need a good trainning school and a few years to have a good infantry Sargent. To have a rifle squad you need that Sargent, ten healthy volunteers and two months. The Italians were unaware of this, since it was a new untried concept. They would assume a walk, and in fact only get involved because of that, go in with a few divisions, and make a mess of it. They had a perfect record of making a mess of every thing in the 30s. Ethiopia was a mess. Their Spain intervention was a mess. Greece was a mess. Albania was a mess. Lybia was a mess. Fascism was a corrupting influence on Italian society and on the Italian Amy. By the 30s it had ruined it.
By 36 the Germans would, in this set up, win easily. In 1934 they would send five divisions to fight a delaying action, leave the rest of the army home to accelerate trainning of volunteers, prevent an Italian victory in 34, wich essentially means keeping them mostly out of Germany, and come back in 1935 to send them back.
The He51 was actually in production in 1934 and German factories were ready to convert to military production, having built for export and for alleged civilian uses. The clandestine Luftwaffe was a few uniforms and black crosses away from being an airforce. Sure, Fiat was transitioning from the CR20 to the CR32 wich was better than the He51, but the 500/1 air superiority some are assuming would not exist nor last.
And this would be an unpopular war of aggression (in this setup) in Italy and a people's war for the Germans and Austrians. Nobody would be talking about an Austro German integration during it, wich would make support for Italy difficult.
One of the assumption the Italian high command made in Plan 34 was that there was a great risk that any agressive move by Italy in Europe would trigger a two front war with France and Yuguslavia.
Enigmajones said fighting Germany is different from fighting Ethyopia. Of course it is. Unless we're talking about a challenge for a 10000m Olympic race, fighting Germany is a lot harder than fighting Ethyopia.
 
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OTL 1934

In OTL 1934 conditions in Austria were not ripe for Anschluss. In my POD it's not up to Hitler to start the crisis. Austria will change and Italy invading it will put Hitler in a position were he has to intervene or risk loosing everything. OTL references are therefore not directly a-playable in this "set up".
 
I still think an experienced Italian Army can give the green Wehrmacht a run for it's money, Nazi Germany is not some super machine that can't be beat unless a bunch of countries join together, So I wouldn't count the Italians out for all their faults.
 
The all thigs was untested, and frankly even if you have the men ready and the possibility of a quick mobilization and enlargement...you must equip and mobilize them, and regarding the air forces...you need to built that things (plus all the support material) before deploy them and this take a little time even if all is ready, it tooked some years of totally unrestricted and economic crushing military budget to Germany to become a continent snatching war machine, 34 or even 36 is too soo, wishfull thinking nowistanding .
France (and the UK) will give Italy the thumbs on for his invasion as basically eliminate a big problem and Yugoslavia as too much internal problem to try something (but if they go for the short victorious war option...well things will become ugly very soon)
By 36 the German army is in a state that even Italy can kick his ass brutally if it use all his asset, and this will happen as Benny can't do othewise.
The Italian armed forces have their problem? Sure, but differently by WWII they can concentrate all in a front, use their better forces and the equipment is not outdated or scarce, plus there are no problem of oil suplly...and no at the time fighting Ethiopia is more problematic than fight Germany due to logistical and terrain problem.
Damn for attacking Poland and France Hitler needed to plunder Czech factories so to equip his army, now is literally too soon.
Hitler basically get the maximum possible in OTL, sure he can probably get Danzing and some minor (very minor) border adjustment from Poland but for this he must abide to Monaco and leave Czech alone...as the OTL invasion basically destroyed his credibility. Maybe he can buy the territory given to Belgium as the Weimar Repubblic tried, but this is another matter; the only other possibly expansion before WWII possible is in case of a Yugoslavian civil war in that case he can try to snacth something in accord with Italy but nothing more.
 
I still think an experienced Italian Army can give the green Wehrmacht a run for it's money, Nazi Germany is not some super machine that can't be beat unless a bunch of countries join together, So I wouldn't count the Italians out for all their faults.

Experienced at what? The Italian army's 1920s to 1934 main experience was being fascizied, wich did it no good at all. It was about to gain some experience, of the WTF kind, one year later in Ethyopia, when it was in serious trouble facing an army it expected ( and should have) to brush away.
 
Quality has a quantity of its own.

Brushing away the ninjas and Chuck Norris jokes, Luke, see what the BEF did at 1st Ypres to see what a professional well trained infantry force can do. There were actions were they were outnumbered six to one, (by the german WW1 army) and still held. Forget the hollywood cliches. The most lethal men in the world are well trained well led infantry soldiers.
 
Brushing away the ninjas and Chuck Norris jokes, Luke, see what the BEF did at 1st Ypres to see what a professional well trained infantry force can do. There were actions were they were outnumbered six to one, (by the german WW1 army) and still held. Forget the hollywood cliches. The most lethal men in the world are well trained well led infantry soldiers.

Sure it is...but only against a similar foes, unfortunately that well trained soldiers face a force who, unlike them, already have aircraft, artillery, armour and more men...who btw are not idiot themselfs so odds are against the Germans for all their untested capacity and mythos who surround them.
No sorry, hope what you want but by 36 Germany don't have the capacity to successfull engage even Italy, she need some more time...it's more probable that Hitler back down the moment the italian army enter Austria and try to get the upper hand politically.
 
Sure it is...but only against a similar foes, unfortunately that well trained soldiers face a force who, unlike them, already have aircraft, artillery, armour and more men...who btw are not idiot themselfs so odds are against the Germans for all their untested capacity and mythos who surround them.
No sorry, hope what you want but by 36 Germany don't have the capacity to successfull engage even Italy, she need some more time...it's more probable that Hitler back down the moment the italian army enter Austria and try to get the upper hand politically.

Check any good site on German WW2 artillery to see just how many WW1 weapons they had in store. The Model 18 list of equipment was ready for immediate production in 1933, having been developed ostensibly for export, and production capability for large numbers having been built in. Check an Italian Order of battle 1934 to see just how WW1 equipped the army was.
And do check just what armour the Italians had in 1934...
Check German production figures for 1935 and 1936 and compare them with Italian ones...
Or just keep on repeating cliches. It's bedtime in my time zone, so I'll let it rest...
 
Does Hitler have any realistic chance of taking Luxembourg?

They speak German there and Hitler could easily put it under the heading of Pan-Germanism, but could he pull it off without starting a war?
 
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