Largest possible Netherlands

Netherlands or, in Low german, Nederland, is just the low country. Originally, this included the old Duchy of (Lower) Saxony and what later became Mecklenburg, Brandenburg and Pomerania.

IOW, with a PoD before the Valois collecting the OTL Netherlands, any Low German state might become "the Netherlands". Just look at the light pink area called "Nieder-Deutsche"

Sprachenkarte_Deutschland1880.png
 
do not forget to allow for new polder from what ever is set up. the more land the reclaim from the sea the bigger the country gets.
 
what is the largest possible Netherlands on Continental Europe?
The answer to this question is rather hard, partly because it is such a broad question. The best way to answer it, is to look at what oppertunities arose for the Netherlands to expand.

Lets first ignore Bakker-Schut, the megalomanic idea of post WWII Netherlands to annex part of Germany:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_...erritory_after_World_War_II#Bakker_Schut_Plan
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Possibly on a much smaller scale, like the OTL annexations (which were later returned to Germany). Anyway, I can't see the allies agreeing to this, as long as they are willing to use Germany as a buffer against the Soviet Union. Without the Soviet Union it might be possible, but on a much smaller scale.

Next megalomanic idea to shoot down is king Willem I's idea to not only add Belgium to the Netherlands, but also a large part of the Rhineland (the area between the rivers Moselle and Rhine). Prussia would never accept it. It was simply too valuable.

What is possible? Well the most obvious one is the Netherlands keeps Belgium. If the Belgian revolt was handled better I believe it is possible for the Netherlands to keep Belgium.

Another one that is reasonable to expect is: the Netherlands is attacked during the first world war and after Germany is defeated is rewarded by gaining small parts of German territory, not unlike Belgium was. Usualy East-Frisia and Cleve is mentioned.

We can even combine the last two, the Netherlands keeps belgium (and Luxemburg) is attacked during an equivalent war and gains some German territory, like Eupen-Malmedy, East-Frisia, Cleves etc. Or you could have an WWI in which France is the agressor and the Netherlands gains French Flanders and Hainaut.

These are possibly the largest gains the Netherlands can make in the 19th/20th century. There are some other possibilities, but they generally end up with a smaller Netherlands (like the Netherlands gains only Flanders at Vienna).

Lets look at the pre napoleonic Europe. Is there any way for the Netherlands to expand? Well yes, kind of. The biggest problem here is that the Dutch republic was barely interested in expanding. So you need a different Netherlands that actualy wants to expand somewhat for some reason. In a way many German counties bordering the Netherlands were Dutch. Cleves, East-Frisia etc were occupied by Dutch troopesand were part of the Dutch sphere of influence. But the Dutch were ok with them being independent, as long as the Dutch could do whatever they want. They prefered Belgium as a buffer state over a Dutch Belgium. If you can change that, you can have the Dutch republic expand both south and east. In my opinion the candidate for this is stadholder Willem II, who wanted to make an alliance with France to devide the Southern Netherlands.

But even in this case you still lack about half of Belgium and I doubt you can gain a lot of German lands this way. I would say just a couple of bordering counties (East-Frisia, Cleves, Bentheim, Lingen, Moers, possibly part of Munster etc.).

In the end I think that a surviving United Kingdom of the Netherlands, which get compensated by a small part of Germany/France after one or two world wars is the biggest you can get.
 

katchen

Banned
Who says the land has to belong to anyone? Wasn't there a plan to build dikes between the West Friesan Islands and reclaim the Waddenzee? And finish poldering the Isselmeer?
 
House of Orange marries into Hapsburgs:Orange match for Maria Teresa? On the other hand, preserve union between Dutch and England, though that would just be a Britwank.
 
Who says the land has to belong to anyone? Wasn't there a plan to build dikes between the West Friesan Islands and reclaim the Waddenzee? And finish poldering the Isselmeer?
Correct. At least for the IJsselmeer. But they stopped when they realised the damage it would do to the environment/nature. I agree that with a less caring goverment it easily could be turned into land.

The reason I didn't mention it is because I consider the IJsselmeer and Waddenzee already as part of the Netherlands. Turning it into land doesn't increase the country.
 
Whit out ending in an ASB there are several options for an enlarged Netherlands or a term I prefer more nation of the Low countries. Since it should not be one state overruling other parts.
First possibilities is in the medieval period between 13th and 15th century, as a string of marriages between the of Noble houses of Brabant, Gelre/Cleve, Flanders, Holland, Hainaut, Arras etc. Since this is deep in history it is very well possible that in the end this will be part of a much larger nation.
Other medieval option is that the House of Burgundy survives and continue to enlarge their possessions. This will ultimate end in a kingdom of Burgundy. However the low countries will be more part of a larger state or even be part of a kind of France under the rule of the house of Burgundy
A Renaissance option is ; Charles V inherits the low countries as part of the Burgundian lands, and he find time and energy between all his other business to settle for good some scores with Gelre and the Bishopric of Munster/Cologne. Adding and binding the counties of Cleve, Berg, Mark, Ravens Berg, and large portions of the Bishopric of Munster to the Burgundian Kreis or it may be they rename it in the Belgian Kreis. The Dutch revolt would take place more or less as in OTL only ending in a larger nation North of the river Rhine than in OTL. As one of the factor that it is a bit larger and thus has a more larger population this might result in the course of the following centuries in a larger nation including OTL Netherland, Belgium, North France, and parts of the present day Nord Rhine Westphalia, Neder-Saksen and Rhineland-Plats.
There is also an Napoleonic option. The brother of Napoleon, Louis is made king of the new Kingdom of Holland, as Napoleon did with all of his brothers.
However Louis realise the continental system, to exclude trade with the UK, would ruin his new kingdom. There for he resist his might brother, find support with the UK and eventual with the Tsar of Russia. After a bloody war Napoleon is deposed and Luis get as gratitude for his support on a Congress of Vienna not only his old kingdom of Holland but as well the Austrian Netherlands, and large portions of the former Prussian possession in the Rhineland parts of Hanover East Frisia and the Palts. As compensation Prussia will get large parts of the Napoleontic kingdom of Westphalia , briefly controlled by his other brother. During the first halve of the 19th century the large deposits of coal in this new kingdom will be exploited, resulting in one of the most industrialised nations of the world if not the largest of the European continent and thus one of the most influential nations of Europe.
 
My first thought was Burgundy, since in essence a Burgundian Netherlands also includes the non-Netherlands lands. Surviving long-term against France will require a crown, or to survive as a unified entity within the HRE - ie not be a Habsburg appendage, but a surviving Valois or a different marriage of the daughter, and exist like Brandeburg or Bavaria or Saxony, tho none of those is a great example of long-term unity!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
IIRC territories controlled by Charles the Bold, but to France lost during the struggle Mary the Rich and later her son Philip the Fair (Handsome) faced to keep their inheritance were.

In the areas near or a part from the same region as the Low Countries: The county of Boulogne* (Bonen), county of Amiens* and the county of Ponthieu = 'Somme Towns' (Picardy), the county of Vermandois*, the counties of St. Pol and EU were in the Burgundian sphere of influence. Then there were the territories in or near Burgundy proper, the duchy of Burgundy*, the county of Macon*, the county of Auxerre* and Bar-sur-Seine, the county of Charolais*was lost but later retained, furthermore the border in the border area between the duchy of Burgundy and the free county of Burgundy changed in favour of France (and thus was territorial loss for the HRE there).

(*= inherited from Philip the Good)

In the OTL treaty of Senlis the border between France and the HRE was also changed the counties of Flanders and Artois and most, but not all, of the county St. Pol was given to Philip the Fair (maybe as some kind of 'feudal liege' though), maybe this might also include another bordering county such as Boulogne; but that probably would be at the expense of the county of Charolais, which for a heir of Burgundy does hold a certain symbolic value (the title count of Charolais was the title of the eldest son and heir of the duke of Burgundy (since it was acquired by Philip the Bold, the founder of the house of Valois-Burgundy). Anything more like the territories in Picardy, which were controlled by the dukes of Valois-Burgundy, IMHO would be too much.
 
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