Largest Possible Low Country?

What would be considered the "core" region of this alt-Low Country? Aside from Benelux, what else might be considered an integral part of the country that they would be loathe to lose?
 
During the days of the Hansa, Low Saxon was used as a trade language all the way to the Baltics, and one may argue that the northern coastal plain of Germany and Poland should be defined as 'low country'. It's just as flat as the Netherlands. Considering the vulnerability of a surviving Lotharingia, this kind of thing might be the better way to go: a contry that unites all Low Franconians, Frisians and Saxons (including those speakers of Low Saxon who overwhelmingly settled Pommerania and Prussia during the Ostsiedlung). We'd be talking about the OTL Low Countries, plus roughly everything blue on this map.

Such a country could be economically powerful. Quite possibly powerful enough to enforce its culture on the parts of the Low Countries that remained French(-speaking) in OTL. I think this country could realistically extend from the Somme to the Memel. It would have Calais, Antwerp, Ghent, Brussels, Liege, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Cologne, Münster, Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover, Berlin, Danzig and Königsberg-- and a score of other cities that are economically significant on an international scale. This would be the economic powerhouse of Europe. Potentially moreso than OTL Germany.

Most importantly it will dominate the entire Rhine. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Firstly there will not be any disturbance in trade flow, and once the Rhine is exploited for full trade potential to export coal through Antwerp and Rotterdam ports via Essen freely, it will dominate trading markets. Not surprised if they turned the current South Holland and Zeeland provinces all into ports, you could easily build 7. It will also have the ports Germany had aswell on the northern Baltic plain, with this combination it would definitely have the potential to unite Germany and the country will be even more naval orientated.
 
Most importantly it will dominate the entire Rhine. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Firstly there will not be any disturbance in trade flow, and once the Rhine is exploited for full trade potential to export coal through Antwerp and Rotterdam ports via Essen freely, it will dominate trading markets. Not surprised if they turned the current South Holland and Zeeland provinces all into ports, you could easily build 7. It will also have the ports Germany had aswell on the northern Baltic plain, with this combination it would definitely have the potential to unite Germany and the country will be even more naval orientated.
The question is why would France, Austria and Denmark let this happen. It only happened in OTL because Prussia had one of Europe's most powerful army and in the aftermath of the Napoleonic wars, Austria's control over Germany was weakened, nationalism was rising in Germany and Bismark was leading the charge. In fact it was these 3 powers the prussians defeated on the road to unification.
 
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Source: https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/
Assuming the ocean is the Netherlands
 
Benelux, parts of France plus Ostfriesland and Alsace Lorraine looks good to me map wise.

My problem is that Lothrangia and Middle Frankia both suck as names.
 
The question is why would France, Austria and Denmark let this happen. It only happened in OTL because Prussia had one of Europe's most powerful army and in the aftermath of the Napoleonic wars, Austria's control over Germany was weakened, nationalism was rising in Germany and Bismark was leading the charge. In fact it was these 3 powers the prussians defeated on the road to unification.

Exactly the reason why it did not happen, the requirement to have a state like Prussia was rare. Prussia originated from Brandenburg and the Teutonic Order; the evolution of its territories moved west into Northern Germany and along the Baltic coast. The only other situation like this is Burgundy and it had territories in two places which were disconnected. Obviously, the reason why Burgundy was never free was that it was not a state, just bursting and overstretched set of duchies, counties, etc, was the subject to France and hinged on a single person. Based on that Charles should have been cautious, I would be. I read once that Charles the Bold could have been Autistic, it was not definitive but the writer analysed a transcript of his behaviour and they linked it to a possible reason why he was never crowned king.

His death defined Europe if you think about it and the Low Countries would not be in independent hands and fought over for centuries because of its value.
 
Flanders and Brabant were part of the original Dutch Revolt, they were just conquered by Spain. A United Netherlands that does better in the war against Spain and manages to either hang on to Antwerp (so that it remains Antwerp-centered) or recapture it (so that Antwerp gets back its port but Amsterdam remains the main city as in OTL) shouldn't be too hard to swing. If it survives to the end of the 17c then the entire nation ends up Protestant or Protestant-ish and there is no call for making Belgium a separate state, and then in the age of nationalism the border ends up approximating the actual language line, depending on which country wins which wars.
 
This is absolutely ridiculous, but you know, its fun.

This scenario assumes that Charles does not die and marries his daughter to a German duchy, not Austria, or that he has a son and the dynasty eventually become German. It also assumes that Burgundy shakes loose of non-low country lands which put it into different institutions.

This is what I envisage. If Burgundy dominates the Low countries and migrates east gaining land through succession wars, inheritance and picking the correct side on wars. Presuming by 1815 that the Holy Roman Empire or replica of it is still in place, such as the German Confederation, she would have a legitimate claim to what we call today the Prussian provinces of Rhine and Westphalia. What's ironic is that in 1815 and 1945 the Dutch actually wanted a slice of this territory without having owning any territory previously. (Apart from Nassau.) Therefore if you have a state with land in these areas for 50, 100, 150 years, the longer they have these lands in this area the more likely they are to expand and want more. In 1815 the coalition in the Congress of Vienna set up the German Confederation to prevent German unification, therefore if you have a Low Country state that was not excluded from the HRE and was ruled independently by a German dynasty for 300 years one would expect to include it.

The geopolitical crisis is mind-boggling, the contest to unite this country would be split three ways: Austrian Empire, Kingdom of Prussia and the "Germanised Dutch Kingdom".

Just look at that coastline.......

Extended German Confederation.png
 
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This is absolutely ridiculous, but you know, its fun.

This scenario assumes that Charles does not die and marries his daughter to a German duchy, not Austria, or that he has a son and the dynasty eventually become German. It also assumes that Burgundy shakes loose of non-low country lands which put it into different institutions.

This is what I envisage. If Burgundy dominates the Low countries and migrates east gaining land through succession wars, inheritance and picking the correct side on wars. Presuming by 1815 that the Holy Roman Empire or replica of it is still in place, such as the German Confederation, she would have a legitimate claim to what we call today the Prussian provinces of Rhine and Westphalia. What's ironic is that in 1815 and 1945 the Dutch actually wanted a slice of this territory without having owning any territory previously. (Apart from Nassau.) Therefore if you have a state with land in these areas for 50, 100, 150 years, the longer they have these lands in this area the more likely they are to expand and want more. In 1815 the coalition in the Congress of Vienna set up the German Confederation to prevent German unification, therefore if you have a Low Country state that was not excluded from the HRE and was ruled independently by a German dynasty for 300 years one would expect to include it.

The geopolitical crisis is mind-boggling, the contest to unite this country would be split three ways: Austrian Empire, Kingdom of Prussia and the "Germanised Dutch Kingdom".

Just look at that coastline.......

View attachment 427323
If this hypothetical Burgundy would be so powerful, why would it lose so much to France? Also, this almost certainly butterflies away Prussia at the very least.
 
If this hypothetical Burgundy would be so powerful, why would it lose so much to France? Also, this almost certainly butterflies away Prussia at the very least.

That is the point it was not powerful enough in the 1470s, it had 'French lands' and 'Holy Roman Empire lands'. Cutting all ties with the Holy Roman Empire will lead to eventual annexation by France. They should have had a lot more French lands by 1460s - 70s to morph into and become 'new France' but they did not. Cutting all ties with France gives Burgundy reasonable certainty of independence within the HRE, it also signals that are they dedicated to staying within the HRE. At this point, it should be dedicated to preserving that independence and expanding eastwards into Germany when available. Its golden years would be similar to the Dutch Republic and they presumably would be sooner because it has more ports, lots of wealthy provinces and it is independent, not foreign ruled. One would expect it to become the "Holy Roman Empire colony kingdom" because of its extensive coastline to venture outwards as the Dutch did with their navy. Trading in slaves, sugar, coffee beans, tobacco, fruit, vegetables, arms, gold and metal are going to make it very powerful and rich from 1500 - 1800. This is perfect for developing advanced techniques for industry and with the Industrial Revolution coming the state should pounce at the opportunity.

It would become astronomically powerful and extremely RICH!!! when coal is found in Essen and current day Belgium, Belgium and Prussia on their own were rich with the coal they had but combining their coal output, with the ports in Antwerp and Rotterdam, using the Rhine river system as a method of transporting the coal from Essen/Wallonia to Rotterdam undisturbed, one does not need to build railways the river system is the railway!! We have not even talked about South Holland and Zeeland, their geography has the potential match Chinese sized ports, maybe even bigger.

With all this and probably some colonies, it is well positioned to dominate the German Confederation through its sheer economic power because small states will say 'your apart of Germany, you have an obligation to give us access to your trading markets' and someone will say 'let's create a trading block, welcome'. In regards to Prussia, whether it does exist or a similar state has its shape or everything else other than the Westphalia and Rhine Provinces are small or medium-sized states, it is going dominate it regardless. I just like the shape and name of Prussia.

Austria is interesting though. Without the Austrian Netherlands, they would have never been able to marry into the Spanish/Aragon Royal family because that is why the Spanish/Aragon Royal family married the Habsburgs, the wealth in the Netherlands. I have also read that if they never made dynasties in Spain, the Habsburg's would not have taken such a strong stance against the Protestants. The overriding factor was the Spanish Inquisition and what they applied in Spain was also applied in Austria through dynastic links. Other than that I do not know what would happen to Austria, would it become a dominating amalgamation of different cultures?
 
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What would be considered the "core" region of this alt-Low Country? Aside from Benelux, what else might be considered an integral part of the country that they would be loathe to lose?

If the Wallons feel concerned about the Union, then there will probably be at least irredentism about Picardy, since Wallons and Picards are really close to each others
 
Charles should have realised that his overwhelming desire for more land was going to end in a fight with multiple enemies, after his house of Valois-Burgundy meteoric rise within 100 years. He should have at this point been reserved and sat on what he had. Within reason Charles should have been able to keep the ‘French lands’ within his own lifetime, however once he dies, France will become eager and irritated that there are two French nations. Therefore if it cannot bargain with it, France will just conquer all of Burgundy, if it is complacent.

Therefore burgundy has too bargain with the land it has with France by selling it back to them and reinvesting the money back into the land it has remaining.
 
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