Largest Possible Low Country?

What it says on the tin; what is the maximum territorial extent that a state situated in the Low Countries can get and how can it get there? Bonus points if you can have it hold most of its borders until the 20th century. Doesn't have to be the Netherlands/Dutch-led so long as it is based in the area, so a Belgiumwank and a Luxemburg wank would count too. As for PoD, I would push it as far back as even as the creation of Lotharingia/Middle Francia if you so choose.
 
Surviving Lotharingia. Occasionally conquered, but always manages to bounce back based off the north-to-south trade routes of Middle Ages Europe. Then, with a rise of nationalism, their borders and peoples slowly solidify. Perhaps they won't run all the way down to the Alps, but it could be very large, with a capital in Aachen and a history dating back from Lothair! This would be one of the more interesting ways to fulfill the requirements. And, of course, a German-lands unification under this Lotharingian state could be interesting....
 
I'm not sure a surviving Lotharingia is feasible, TBH: its borders were too long, it had stronger states on both sides, and it didn't have any defensible borders. Plus, it wasn't built on any pre-existing nation or identity, so it's hard to see how it could bounce back after being conquered.
 
Easiest is probably post-Napoleon Dutchwank, where they eventually take all French Flanders and then some, as in back to where the Dutch linguistic borders were in the early Middle Ages (IIRC the Somme).

Can Doggerland still be above sea-level?

That's for when this nation does the ultimate land reclaimation project.
 
I'm not sure a surviving Lotharingia is feasible, TBH: its borders were too long, it had stronger states on both sides, and it didn't have any defensible borders. Plus, it wasn't built on any pre-existing nation or identity, so it's hard to see how it could bounce back after being conquered.
It could be artificially re-instated or survive from a collapse on either front (probably East Frankie) into smaller states.
 
A son of Charles the Bold from Margaret of York inherits the English Crown as well as the Duchy. English power is used to increase Burgundy's size onto the North German plain while loosing the more indefensible areas.

This union of crowns lasts a century and half, long enough to assimilate populations and a branch of Royalty into a proto Dutch matrix. Eventually the crowns split. Have a border on the Elbe and add Cleves and Lorraine.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
During the days of the Hansa, Low Saxon was used as a trade language all the way to the Baltics, and one may argue that the northern coastal plain of Germany and Poland should be defined as 'low country'. It's just as flat as the Netherlands. Considering the vulnerability of a surviving Lotharingia, this kind of thing might be the better way to go: a contry that unites all Low Franconians, Frisians and Saxons (including those speakers of Low Saxon who overwhelmingly settled Pommerania and Prussia during the Ostsiedlung). We'd be talking about the OTL Low Countries, plus roughly everything blue on this map.

Such a country could be economically powerful. Quite possibly powerful enough to enforce its culture on the parts of the Low Countries that remained French(-speaking) in OTL. I think this country could realistically extend from the Somme to the Memel. It would have Calais, Antwerp, Ghent, Brussels, Liege, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Cologne, Münster, Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover, Berlin, Danzig and Königsberg-- and a score of other cities that are economically significant on an international scale. This would be the economic powerhouse of Europe. Potentially moreso than OTL Germany.
 
What it says on the tin; what is the maximum territorial extent that a state situated in the Low Countries can get and how can it get there? Bonus points if you can have it hold most of its borders until the 20th century. Doesn't have to be the Netherlands/Dutch-led so long as it is based in the area, so a Belgiumwank and a Luxemburg wank would count too. As for PoD, I would push it as far back as even as the creation of Lotharingia/Middle Francia if you so choose.
Surviving Burgund becoming a nation state and a mediator between France and Germany ?
 
drain_nl.png


Source: https://what-if.xkcd.com/53/
 
Surviving Lotharingia. Occasionally conquered, but always manages to bounce back based off the north-to-south trade routes of Middle Ages Europe. Then, with a rise of nationalism, their borders and peoples slowly solidify. Perhaps they won't run all the way down to the Alps, but it could be very large, with a capital in Aachen and a history dating back from Lothair! This would be one of the more interesting ways to fulfill the requirements. And, of course, a German-lands unification under this Lotharingian state could be interesting....

I'm not sure a surviving Lotharingia is feasible, TBH: its borders were too long, it had stronger states on both sides, and it didn't have any defensible borders. Plus, it wasn't built on any pre-existing nation or identity, so it's hard to see how it could bounce back after being conquered.

Lotharingia is definitely my go-to Low Countries wank for a reason~ Their trade position is strong over land and water with most French-German trade having to pass through them. And if we use the old borders (before they traded Alsace to Swabia), then they control almost all of the Rhine besides the area around Pfalz. If they take that, they have a defensible border on the Rhine.

Middle Francia for sure is hard to see as surviving, and definitely fits all those things @Fabius Maximus said. But Lotharingia as in modern Lorraine-Benelux-Rhineland is probably more cohesive. Most of it was in the Frankish Austrasia so it has more of a heritage, is more compact and defensible, and as East and West Francia broke down into its feudal mess Lotharingia would have a greater precedent to centralize as it holds the old capital of Aachen.

Easiest is probably post-Napoleon Dutchwank, where they eventually take all French Flanders and then some, as in back to where the Dutch linguistic borders were in the early Middle Ages (IIRC the Somme).
Do they have the strength to push France back by that time to that extent? I thought that post-Napoleon France would be at its strongest as now it's more centralized and streamlined so it can prepare for war much faster. An alternate Congress of Vienna would be interesting, gifting the Netherlands more land, but that would require more participation in taking down Nappy or some very good reason as to why they should be given those lands instead of someone else.

A son of Charles the Bold from Margaret of York inherits the English Crown as well as the Duchy. English power is used to increase Burgundy's size onto the North German plain while loosing the more indefensible areas.

This union of crowns lasts a century and half, long enough to assimilate populations and a branch of Royalty into a proto Dutch matrix. Eventually the crowns split. Have a border on the Elbe and add Cleves and Lorraine.
An Anglo-Burgundian alliance is bound to piss off France and would lead to war for sure. If by "indefensible areas" you mean the Duchy/County of Burgundy then yeah, France will probably take those in a war like this. This might even rekindle the Hundred Years War as now once again the King of England is technically a French fief; after the loss of Burgundy proper, he'd still be a vassal through Flanders and Vermandois if he can keep those during the war. If he can survive the loss of Flanders, Calais, Artois, and Vermandois, then perhaps England can spread north and east instead, but then the Emperor won't be happy with England stomping around in the northern half of the Empire. Most of the lands are ecclesiastic too (Prince-Bishoprics of Munster, Osnabruck, Bremen, and Verden cover most of the Low Saxon lands nearby) so England would be pissing off the pope as well. A century and a half won't be enough to get this Low Country to that size you wanted without constant war and disregard for the continental feudal system.

During the days of the Hansa, Low Saxon was used as a trade language all the way to the Baltics, and one may argue that the northern coastal plain of Germany and Poland should be defined as 'low country'. It's just as flat as the Netherlands. Considering the vulnerability of a surviving Lotharingia, this kind of thing might be the better way to go: a contry that unites all Low Franconians, Frisians and Saxons (including those speakers of Low Saxon who overwhelmingly settled Pommerania and Prussia during the Ostsiedlung). We'd be talking about the OTL Low Countries, plus roughly everything blue on this map.

Such a country could be economically powerful. Quite possibly powerful enough to enforce its culture on the parts of the Low Countries that remained French(-speaking) in OTL. I think this country could realistically extend from the Somme to the Memel. It would have Calais, Antwerp, Ghent, Brussels, Liege, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Cologne, Münster, Bremen, Hamburg, Hannover, Berlin, Danzig and Königsberg-- and a score of other cities that are economically significant on an international scale. This would be the economic powerhouse of Europe. Potentially moreso than OTL Germany.
This one is a pretty intriguing proposition. Certainly curious as to how it can form, other than perhaps an alternate division of the Frankish domains (North Francia maybe, containing all of Austrasia, Frisia, and Saxony?)
 

Skallagrim

Banned
This one is a pretty intriguing proposition. Certainly curious as to how it can form, other than perhaps an alternate division of the Frankish domains (North Francia maybe, containing all of Austrasia, Frisia, and Saxony?)

I was thinking early trouble within the HRE.

In OTL, the medieval Duchy of Saxony dissolved after 1180, and the old Stem Duchy got cut up, while the Ducal title passed (eventually) to the Wettin dynasty of the Margraviate of Meissen. This led to the region that is called "Saxony" in the modern day, but it also weakened the unity of northern Germany (the old Stem Duchy of Saxony had been the big player there) and formed a greater tie between North Germany and Middle Germany (the "Saxon inheritance" now tied parts of both regions together.)

My suggestion would be to keep the Stem Duchy of Saxony going strong. All areas to its east were primarily settled with people from there anyway, so those regions can easily be turned into the Saxon 'back yard'. Then have the Burgundian inheritance fall to the rulers of Saxony through lucky dynastic union, and there you go. This will automatically prompt other German polities to unite against this emerging power. It's undeniable that they can either band together against this power, or see it take over the HRE entirely. To accomplish to goal of this thread, just have the resulting conflict result in a split of the HRE, with all Low German regions becoming a separate country.

There you go. To be fair, chances are that given diverse trade interests (west, north, east) a central capital makes sense. I'm thinking Hamburg. That means it's not going to be a very Dutch country. This will by definition be more of a Saxon wank. (On the other hand, a surviving Lotharingia with any sizable area outside the Dutch regions would probably be rather un-Dutch as well...)
 
Why is everybody talking about borders which are undefendable for Lotharingen (not the Complete Middle Empire with Italy and Burgundy)IMO France had also undefendable Borders in the North and East but survived untill now.
IMO a Carolingian kingdom of Lotharingia could be a Good Start with Aix la Chapelle or Maastricht as Capital and with Flabders Artois and Picardy conquered in the West and Alsace and the Latter Palatinate in the East Conquered it could habe a viability untill now
 
Do colonial possessions count? If so, a United Provinces that hangs onto Brazil and New Amsterdam, colonizes New Holland and New Zealand, properly expands the Cape Colony, and breaks more into India can get pretty dang big. Perhaps if they were more able to get settlers from the remainder of the Germanies somehow?
 
Do they have the strength to push France back by that time to that extent? I thought that post-Napoleon France would be at its strongest as now it's more centralized and streamlined so it can prepare for war much faster. An alternate Congress of Vienna would be interesting, gifting the Netherlands more land, but that would require more participation in taking down Nappy or some very good reason as to why they should be given those lands instead of someone else.

United Netherlands will have a sizable population and industry on their own, but against the giant that is France, they'd need allies for a Great War style conflict. Either Germany (if it forms) or the UK will do. After one or two rounds against France, perhaps France gets broken up at the fringes for the benefit of the anti-French side to permanently end the French menace. Lille and other bits of France in that region were important to French industry after all, France is even less defensible now, and whoever the main Western European partner of the Dutch is will be sure to grab something too.

They wouldn't get overrun either, necessarily, assuming they can do a good job holding them at the rivers and making it an utter slog. "In Flanders fields" ring a bell?

Why is everybody talking about borders which are undefendable for Lotharingen (not the Complete Middle Empire with Italy and Burgundy)IMO France had also undefendable Borders in the North and East but survived untill now.
IMO a Carolingian kingdom of Lotharingia could be a Good Start with Aix la Chapelle or Maastricht as Capital and with Flabders Artois and Picardy conquered in the West and Alsace and the Latter Palatinate in the East Conquered it could habe a viability untill now

France's northern and eastern borders aren't that bad, at least not by the end of the 17th century when they had Alsace. A lot of rivers and forests, the Rhine, etc. Although I suppose there's a good reason the Frenchman Vauban was so famed.

Do colonial possessions count? If so, a United Provinces that hangs onto Brazil and New Amsterdam, colonizes New Holland and New Zealand, properly expands the Cape Colony, and breaks more into India can get pretty dang big. Perhaps if they were more able to get settlers from the remainder of the Germanies somehow?

The problem isn't finding settlers (Germans along with Frenchmen formed a sizable component of Afrikaners), it's sending settlers, which requires changing the mentality behind Dutch colonization. The Dutch Republic had about as many people as Portugal, yet sent a tiny fraction of people in comparison.
 
Why is everybody talking about borders which are undefendable for Lotharingen (not the Complete Middle Empire with Italy and Burgundy)IMO France had also undefendable Borders in the North and East but survived untill now.
IMO a Carolingian kingdom of Lotharingia could be a Good Start with Aix la Chapelle or Maastricht as Capital and with Flabders Artois and Picardy conquered in the West and Alsace and the Latter Palatinate in the East Conquered it could habe a viability untill now
Oh, for sure. The concept of Middle Francia and Lotharingia are closely overlapping hence the confusion. Lotharingia proper is still a bit long and located in largely flat land, but after the break up of East Francia into feudal domains its main concern really is keeping itself together and keeping France at bay since its feudal lords seemed to be more loyal to the crown. Aachen would be a great capital: historic as well as located centrally in the domains.

Do colonial possessions count? If so, a United Provinces that hangs onto Brazil and New Amsterdam, colonizes New Holland and New Zealand, properly expands the Cape Colony, and breaks more into India can get pretty dang big. Perhaps if they were more able to get settlers from the remainder of the Germanies somehow?
Colonialism wasn't my intended direction, but I can see it. However, like @metalinvader665 said, you would have to change Dutch colonial policy since they were much more mercantile-oriented as opposed to settling people there. And then you would have to somehow stave off independence movements in those colonies once they become large and see themselves as better governed locally than from a distant land.
 
Let's not forget that Charles V was Dutch. If the inheritances of the 15th-16th centuries went a little differently, the Burgundian Circle could have ended up under an independent Dutch Habsburg branch. This branch of the Habsburgs could have overshadowed the Austrian Habsburgs and dominated the Holy Roman Empire. Who knows? Dutch might have even become the lingua franca of Germany, rather than Hochdeutsch.
 
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