Largest possible Irish colonial Empire

The POD is 1169. How large could an Irish overseas Empire be in the scenario of Ireland never being conquered by the English?
 
1169 is late. You need the Irish to unify quickly while England are distracted so that they are relatively secure on that front.

But ok say ireland goes into the 17th century properly united, with a larger percentage settled down into farm and towns rather than cattle clans and with a large navy to defend itself against the british kingdoms.

Well there's still the population problem. It's a small country which limits how many people it can send abroad. Which wouldn't discourage them if there was the will, mind you. If Courland can form colonies, ireland definately can. But unless there's a major population boom it's going to be on a much smaller scale than even the dutch or the portuguese managed let alone the spanish or the french.

I'd imagine something on the lines of the danish or swedish colonial empires. Maybe the Omani one where several important ports were grabbed and that translated into loose control of a bigger area.
 
The population of Ireland IOTL did explode in the late 18th and early 19th century, from 3 million to 8 million from 1780 to 1840, according to Wikipedia at least. So I don't think they'd have any lack of potential colonists.
 
The population of Ireland IOTL did explode in the late 18th and early 19th century, from 3 million to 8 million from 1780 to 1840, according to Wikipedia at least. So I don't think they'd have any lack of potential colonists.

Sure, but at this time, where to send them ? The major british settlement colonies were already in their hands in the mid-18th c. You would need a situation where Ireland actually managed to form colonies, but also to settle them with a population level able to resist to their more populous neighbors' appetite. I agree with Youngmarshall here, the Irish colonies might follow a ala Dutch colonial history, loosing its settlement colonies but keeping some sugar or spice islands.
 
I would set the POD back a bit further so you can find a way to weaken the main colonial powers of OTL. This would give Eire a fighting chance.
 
The population of Ireland IOTL did explode in the late 18th and early 19th century, from 3 million to 8 million from 1780 to 1840, according to Wikipedia at least. So I don't think they'd have any lack of potential colonists.

Which had a lot to do with the change in farming methods, the introduction of new crops in the potato etc. Would that happen without an English conquest?
 

Zachariah

Banned
Hmm. POD in 1169? Would it be possible to have a POD slightly after that- say, with Henry II gaining the approval of either Pope Alexander III or his successor to have John crowned King of Ireland? From that POD, John Angevin's first visit to Ireland in 1185 goes far better than it did IOTL, and John I is successfully coronated as the first King of Ireland, with him and his successors going on to develop and expand the Irish economy, increasing the efficacy of Irish taxation and established numerous new Irish market towns. In contrast, in this TL, the English economy largely stagnates relative to that of Ireland- John never becomes King of England, butterflying Liverpool (a town which he personally founded by royal charter himself in the early 13th century) out of existence, with far-reaching consequences for English colonial aspirations.

John's elder brother Geoffrey escapes his death in the jousting tournament in 1186, becoming King of England instead; Geoffrey's personal friendship with Philip II of France sees Geoffrey retain his place as the ruler of Normandy, Brittany and Anjou, as a vassal of Philip II; the long-proposed marriage of his daughter, Eleanor, to Philip's son and eventual successor, Louis VIII, goes ahead without King Richard alive to interfere, and the Angevin kingdoms on the mainland soon merge with the Kingdom of France. However, he becomes a far more neglectful and tyrannical ruler in England than John I ever was IOTL, rousing far more resentment about his even worse misgovernment, fiscal policies and treatment of many of England's most powerful nobles.

As such, with the Magna Carta never signed ITTL, the First Baron's War becomes a full-blown civil war, one which ousts the Angevin dynasty permanently. Largely indifferent about the loss of England, with his primary focus on France, Geoffrey withdraws from England; and the Kingdom of England fragments, with the 25 (probably more ITTL) feudal baronies fighting against one another for dominance, and England becoming a patchwork quilt of principalities with no true king, to an even greater extent than Germany and the contemporary Holy Roman Empire.

Because of this, the primary base of power, wealth and trade in the British Isles shifts permanently from the chaotic, divided and war-ravaged lands of England to the stable, unified and well-governed Kingdom of Ireland- with Llywelyn the Great, one of John I's greatest allies and son-in-law IOTL, and the Kingdoms of Wales under his dominion, eventually becoming vassals of the Irish crown instead of the English crown ITTL. And when British colonialism does kick off ITTL, instead of setting sail from Plymouth, Portsmouth, Bristol, Liverpool and London, the ships set sail predominantly from Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Derry, Waterford, Drogheda, and perhaps even Bangor, Anglesey, Pembroke and Chester as well. And TTL's British Empire effectively becomes the Irish Empire instead.

How does that sound?
 

ben0628

Banned
Best bet is somehow keep Ireland independent of England and have a merchant company set up shop at African ports. Maybe give them a Caribbean island.

Theyd probably have to be allied with France
 

It's

Banned
1169 is late. You need the Irish to unify quickly while England are distracted so that they are relatively secure on that front.

But ok say ireland goes into the 17th century properly united, with a larger percentage settled down into farm and towns rather than cattle clans and with a large navy to defend itself against the british kingdoms.

Well there's still the population problem. It's a small country which limits how many people it can send abroad. Which wouldn't discourage them if there was the will, mind you. If Courland can form colonies, ireland definately can. But unless there's a major population boom it's going to be on a much smaller scale than even the dutch or the portuguese managed let alone the spanish or the french.

I'd imagine something on the lines of the danish or swedish colonial empires. Maybe the Omani one where several important ports were grabbed and that translated into loose control of a bigger area.

As a Roman Catholic country, would it not be obliged to obey the papal edict dividing the new world between Spain and Portugal?
 
As a Roman Catholic country, would it not be obliged to obey the papal edict dividing the new world between Spain and Portugal?

The idea of Catholic countries being ruled by the Pope is pretty much a Protestant fantasy. France certainly did not mind sending colonist in the New World.
 
Well, the first thing you'd need to do would be to unite Ireland into an effective country before you can realistically talk about expanding.

Or, if you're going just by culture, not political rule, you COULD have the New World settled by Irish fleeing English oppression, setting up a colony in, say, OTL's Nova Scotia....
 

It's

Banned
The idea of Catholic countries being ruled by the Pope is pretty much a Protestant fantasy. France certainly did not mind sending colonist in the New World.
France is not Ireland; it is larger than Spain or Portugal and innately too powerful even for the papacy. Ireland was a small and devout northern outpost of Rome.
Perhaps, in this sort of time line, there is less ardour in the Irish national character to stay with Rome, as there is no longer any motivation to try to differentiate itself from the mainland (i.e. "look, rest of the world, unlike England, Scotland and Wales, we're not Protestant!"). Maybe in this TL Ireland becomes independently Protestant, like Scotland did?
 

Hunter W.

Banned
I do believe there is an Island called "New Ireland" in the Northern New Guinea archipelago, some small colonies in North America would be alright for fur trading which was the reason the great powers sought territory there in the first place, the problem is how to defend these colonies with I assume limited resources.
 

It's

Banned
I do believe there is an Island called "New Ireland" in the Northern New Guinea archipelago, some small colonies in North America would be alright for fur trading which was the reason the great powers sought territory there in the first place, the problem is how to defend these colonies with I assume limited resources.
New Ireland- correct, next to "new Britain". Many other Irish place names were duplicated throughout he British empire because mainlanders considered the Irish family, even though the sentiment was and is clearly not reciprocated.
 
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