Largest possible Caliphate

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Deleted member 67076

What is the largest possible Muslim expansion that could occur with a POD in 600? Could the Caliphate, should it defeat the Eastern Roman Empire, take Italy, the entire Iberian peninsula and a chunk of Gaul? Also, could it expand into India or parts of Tang China?
 
What is the largest possible Muslim expansion that could occur with a POD in 600? Could the Caliphate, should it defeat the Eastern Roman Empire, take Italy, the entire Iberian peninsula and a chunk of Gaul? Also, could it expand into India or parts of Tang China?

Assuming you're not concerned about lasting, I'd say yes (on Europe).

As for India and Tang China, that sounds like it would splinter too quickly - even if successful - to count.

India might, maybe, work, but I don't see China except on the edges.

OTL is already beyond the scope of the rulers to keep a hold of internally, though.
 
India itself was on the edges, and to swallow up more than that is a far greater effort.

Edges for Tang China might be possible; but if only because Tang China had a tenuous sort of control over modern day Xinjiang. Even the edges of that is sort of pushing it, IMO. There's certainly no way you'd get the Caliphate getting anywhere near the edges of China proper.

The Caliphate, it is worth noting, for all purposes did for some time control virtually the entire of Iberia. At its greatest expansion, the only Christian kingdom there was a small strip on the north coast.
 

Deleted member 67076

India itself was on the edges, and to swallow up more than that is a far greater effort.

Edges for Tang China might be possible; but if only because Tang China had a tenuous sort of control over modern day Xinjiang. Even the edges of that is sort of pushing it, IMO. There's certainly no way you'd get the Caliphate getting anywhere near the edges of China proper.

The Caliphate, it is worth noting, for all purposes did for some time control virtually the entire of Iberia. At its greatest expansion, the only Christian kingdom there was a small strip on the north coast.

How come it didn't take fully control of the Northern Iberian coast?
 
Same reason the Teutonic Knights didn't invade Finland, I think.

Too much work for too little profit.

I think there's a difference, though. The one was at the time basically a gigantic out of the way tundra, but this is basically a Christian outpost hanging right off a major Caliphate region.
 
I think there's a difference, though. The one was at the time basically a gigantic out of the way tundra, but this is basically a Christian outpost hanging right off a major Caliphate region.

The Teutonic Knights were happy to invade an area just as far away that wasn't even pagan (Novgorod), so I think the "tundra" is more relevant.

Or in norhtern Iberia, the mountains.

Difficult terrain + low profit = why?
 
I think there's a difference, though. The one was at the time basically a gigantic out of the way tundra, but this is basically a Christian outpost hanging right off a major Caliphate region.

Hmm. It might be worrysome for some locals, but not for the Caliph in Baghdad. Imagine a map of the Caliphate 730 AD. Can you really imagine the Caliph (yes, they didn't have good maps, but I'm being metaphorical here) looking at that little strip of territory on the furthest edge of his conquests and saying "Allah save us! We must crush the Asturias and the Basques, or we will lose all of Iberia!"? The Reconquista didn't really kick off until after Iberia had become independent, and in any event the big reverses didn't take places until centuries later..

Bruce
 
There's a practical limit how big a polity can get given a certain technological level. Until the 1800s, that limit was pretty much set. The Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and China pretty much show the size of the largest, sustainable state for most of human history.

The Caliphate had pretty much already reached the size of its limit. Now there may be one Caliph with theoretical sovereignty over various Islamic states, but in terms of real power he'll have a much smaller state. Even before the Ummayads in Spain restored their caliphate and the Fatimids announced their own, the Abbasids did not rule that area.

So is the original poster talking about a single Islamic state, or just a larger area where Muslims havd had successful invasions?
 
Hmm. It might be worrysome for some locals, but not for the Caliph in Baghdad. Imagine a map of the Caliphate 730 AD. Can you really imagine the Caliph (yes, they didn't have good maps, but I'm being metaphorical here) looking at that little strip of territory on the furthest edge of his conquests and saying "Allah save us! We must crush the Asturias and the Basques, or we will lose all of Iberia!"? The Reconquista didn't really kick off until after Iberia had become independent, and in any event the big reverses didn't take places until centuries later..

Bruce

a) In 730, the Caliph wasn't in Baghdad. Actually, there was no Baghdad to speak of. This is the nitpicking bit
b) By 730, the Caliph had little to no power to manage anything whatsoever about the farthest reaches of his realm, especially the western reaches. Actual Caliphal control in any part of Iberia was pretty mild in the best case. I am not even sure that conquest of Spain was planned in Damascus to begin with, I'm under the strong impression that it was lagerly the doing of local commanders in Northwestern Africa. In 730, no Caliph will have the possibility to say "conquer Asturias" and hope being obeyed unless it fitted the motives of the Arab commanders on the ground. A ground that is some tens hundred kilometers away from Caliphal control.
 
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katchen

Banned
I could see the Caliphate remembering Ethiopia and conquering Christian Nubia to get to it. And if failing to get past Axum, conquering along the Sahel and Islamicizing it all the way to Cape Verde 500 years earlier than OTL. And possibly Somalia and into highland Kenya and the Rift Valley to Lake Tanganyika. Beyond the Luo country, they would run into problems with Tsetse fly.
Possibly the Swahili Coast and Madagascar, if they can discover it.
 
I could see the Caliphate remembering Ethiopia and conquering Christian Nubia to get to it. And if failing to get past Axum, conquering along the Sahel and Islamicizing it all the way to Cape Verde 500 years earlier than OTL. And possibly Somalia and into highland Kenya and the Rift Valley to Lake Tanganyika. Beyond the Luo country, they would run into problems with Tsetse fly.
Possibly the Swahili Coast and Madagascar, if they can discover it.

They knew about those places, most of them at least (I am not sure about when Muslims first contacted Madagascar, but it had to be fairly early). Problem is that the Caliphate acutally tried to take Nubia, and failed pretty thoroughly. Then the agreement with the Nubian Christians that lasted some centuries.
 

Deleted member 67076

So is the original poster talking about a single Islamic state, or just a larger area where Muslims havd had successful invasions?
Both really. One for the United Islamic state, and other for more successful invasions.
 
Terrain would be their biggest bugger. Going through deserts and mountains, around oceans, and such it is hard to maintain control and communication. Look how quickly the generals and governors of the corners of the Caliphate set up their own dominions and eventually got the idea to go back and try and conquer everyone all over again. The Caliph is Nominal Leader path is the most likely way to gain the largest area of influence. Like the Pope and all the Catholic kingdoms.
 
I wouldn't just focus on the Constantinople end. Umayyads outnumbered the Franks in the Occitan for much of the 600s and 700s. A few battles different (Tours, Arles, Narbonne) and the various Andalusi and Arab colonies in southern France could become the basis for an Arab/Berber Islamization of Provence and Lombardy.

The south of Italy northeast of Sicily is more of a stretch. Even surrounded by a Sicilian emirate and muslim Tunisia, the terrain is all wrong and has the same issues as Asturias holding out.
 

katchen

Banned
I would focus on the East. The Abbasid Caliphate fought the Tibetan Empire around 810-815, invading from Kashmir but were held off by the forces of Tride Songstsan. What if they were not held off. We could have a Muslim instead of a Buddhist Tibet. (Of course if the Tibetand had held Kabul from the Abbasids, which is how the war started, we might have a Buddhist Afghanistan today:)). Perhaps the Caliphate then defeats the Uighur Khaghanate, taking over Mongolia (or alternatively, the Abbasids just defeat the Uighur Khaganate, which is Mianichean leading to a Muslim Mongolia and a later attempt at Islamicizing China in the 13th Century under the now Muslim Mongols).
Lots of possibilities here.
If the Tibetans and the Uighurs are both conquered by the Calipahte, I would look to Tibetan tribes and Buddhist lamas migrating as refugees to the last possible refuge, Northern Siberia, where they might expand beyond the reach and notice of the Caliphate. Since altitude is equivalent to latitude, the Tibetans with their barley and yaks would be well adapted to surviving in the Lena Valley and expanding from there.
 
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