Largest Possible Burgundy

By what I can find they are the same thing. After the split up of the Carolingian Empire, there was West Francia in France, East Francia in Germany, and Lotharingia, or Middle Francia, stretching from the Netherlands to Lombardy.
A common misconception. Middle Francia stretched from the Netherlands to Rome, and was Lothar I's part of the Carolingian inheritance. The Kingdom of Lotharingia, however, was the part of Lothar I's kingdom inherited by his second eldest son, also called Lothar. The Kingdom of Lotharingia was named after the second Lothar, not the first and only contained the parts of Middle Francia north of Provence.
 
A common misconception. Middle Francia stretched from the Netherlands to Rome, and was Lothar I's part of the Carolingian inheritance. The Kingdom of Lotharingia, however, was the part of Lothar I's kingdom inherited by his second eldest son, also called Lothar. The Kingdom of Lotharingia was named after the second Lothar, not the first and only contained the parts of Middle Francia north of Provence.

I agree, but then again this is basically what I wrote. ;)
 
One of these days I should learn that if you have already posted in a Burgundy thread, whatever point I was thinking of making has probably already been made. :eek:
 
Without going into detail, the greatest Burgundy I can imagine without getting highly unrealistic would contain all of the OTL territories+Lorraine, Savoy, Piemonte, all of the Frisias. Cleves-Mark, Jülich-Berg, Liège and a bunch of other minor territories here and there on the west bank of the Rhine.

If you go further into Burgundywank territory:
All of the above+all Imperial territory west of the Rhine+Provence and Champagne.


Expand it further than that and it can't really be called Burgundy anymore. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but a Burgundy that contains all of France is not Burgundy; it's just a bloated France.

To us, but in that ATL the people of the ATL might call that bloated France Burgandy.
 
A common misconception. Middle Francia stretched from the Netherlands to Rome, and was Lothar I's part of the Carolingian inheritance. The Kingdom of Lotharingia, however, was the part of Lothar I's kingdom inherited by his second eldest son, also called Lothar. The Kingdom of Lotharingia was named after the second Lothar, not the first and only contained the parts of Middle Francia north of Provence.

Okay, I was wrong. I looked it up earlier for confirmation of what I was thinking, but they had the same map for both. I originally said that they controlled most the same land, but for some reason I changed it. But still, what I said earlier still applies. If they where to take control of Middle Francia's de Jure lands, they would I think be pretty much maxed out for growth.
 
Okay, I was wrong. I looked it up earlier for confirmation of what I was thinking, but they had the same map for both. I originally said that they controlled most the same land, but for some reason I changed it. But still, what I said earlier still applies. If they where to take control of Middle Francia's de Jure lands, they would I think be pretty much maxed out for growth.

Well there I have to disagree, IMHO restoring the whole of Francia Media won't be possible. Regardless of the issues they would face in the Italian Peninsula, there are difficult parts like the Swiss Confederation; besides that the larger Burgundy grows, especially outside their sphere of influence, IMHO the larger any alliance against Burgundy will grow. Uniting the Upper and Lower Burgundian (= Low Countries :)) Lands would be possible; but a Burgundian Milan or Turin I find much harder to find possible.
 
Wonder what a modern Burgundy would be like?Hmmmmm

Probably a larger (and thus more powerful) version of Belgium. In terms of population it would have a population similar to OTL Poland. It will also have a small Dutch speaking majority, followed by a large Francophone minority and a smaller German speaking minority. Also given the fact that the elite would have been mostly Francophone for a few centuries (like in OTL Belgium), political tensions between Francophones and Dutch speakers could arise at times.
 
By modern times though i doubt they would be speaking French. It would probably be some creole German-Dutch-primarily French language. Something horrible like English.
 

ingemann

Banned
By modern times though i doubt they would be speaking French. It would probably be some creole German-Dutch-primarily French language. Something horrible like English.
You mean like the creole language they speak in Belgian and Switzerland
 
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