Larger Switzerland

oshron

oshron

hey, all. i want to explore a possibility for both Anglo-American Rivalry and for my ASB ATL. everyone here knows about the Swiss AH cliches, about how its never any larger or smaller than it is IOTL and how it is never invaded or involved on the world scale

i'd like to explore some possibilities about Switzerland being at least slightly larger than it is IOTL. with a POD no earlier than 1783, is there any possibility that Switzerland could become slightly larger or more influential? the POD can take place at any time after that, even up into the 20th century with a Swiss Nazi party if you want (though i'd like to avoid that ;))
 

mikegold

oshron said:
hey, all. i want to explore a possibility for both Anglo-American Rivalry and for my ASB ATL. everyone here knows about the Swiss AH cliches, about how its never any larger or smaller than it is IOTL and how it is never invaded or involved on the world scale

i'd like to explore some possibilities about Switzerland being at least slightly larger than it is IOTL. with a POD no earlier than 1783, is there any possibility that Switzerland could become slightly larger or more influential? the POD can take place at any time after that, even up into the 20th century with a Swiss Nazi party if you want (though i'd like to avoid that ;))
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I think 1783 cuts off most of the best opportunities for expansion. When the Swiss confederacy first appeared on the scene as an unusual leage of peasant pikemen, it was quite the new thing, and up through the 16th century there are opportunities for expansion both north and south. By 1783, though, Switzerland was sort of a quirky accident of history with a very traditional and perhaps moribund approach to international affairs.
 

wolf_brother

Banned
1783 is fairly late for a larger Switzerland. Smaller is always possible, but larger?...

Maybe if the various condominiums, protectorates, vassals, and associated allied states that were excluded IOTL are wrapped up in the Helvetic Republic ITTL you might see a larger Switzerland post-Vienna Congress.
 

FDW

Banned
The best chance would be before your POD, but given your POD, having the French revolutionary wars affect Switzerland, with it ending on the victors side at the end and getting to reap some spoils.
 

warsfan

Mulhouse was part of the Swiss Confederation. Perhaps with the right POD you can have Switzerland use it as a starting point to aquire some of southern Alsace.
 
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
Further areas to consider:

Switzerland retaining Sondrio after the Napoleonic Wars, or even annexing Como as well.

Liechtenstein being annexed during Napoleonic period.

Switzerland awarded the Chablis at Vienna.
 

Falecius

Alex Richards said:
Further areas to consider:

Switzerland retaining Sondrio after the Napoleonic Wars, or even annexing Como as well.

Liechtenstein being annexed during Napoleonic period.

Switzerland awarded the Chablis at Vienna.
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Sondrio is quite possible, though Austria will want it. Como is sort of hard.
I would also consider the Ossola valley as a possibility.
After 1859, Switzerland seriously opposed French annexation of Savoy and tried to claim Annecy. I don't know how it was likely to fly well in any given circumstance, but I hope it helps.
 

DTF955Baseballfan

Falecius said:
After 1859, Switzerland seriously opposed French annexation of Savoy and tried to claim Annecy. I don't know how it was likely to fly well in any given circumstance, but I hope it helps.
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I didn't know that; that's interesting.

I'm intrigued because while Savoy itself couldn't be part of Switzerland with a POD that late, I to have an Alt-Switzerland that includes Savoy and Piedmont in "Sweet Lands of Liberty - what happens is that in this alt-Reformation (led by Waldensians), but support of Savoy and, IIRC, its victory in a subsequent war eventually leads to Europeans accepting its neutrality as a buffer between the Holy Roman Empire (Catholic) and Western Europe minus Iberia (Protestant). I'm thinking I have it retaining the name Savoy, but it could be the Savoyard Confederation of Switzerland.

Earlier than that, perhapd durign OTL's Reformation you could see a number of small German Duchies near the Swiss border wanting to join the Protestant Swiss. Perhaps if the Savoyards die out in the 1580s it coudl be divided with some agreement wherein the Waldensians and even some Huguenots are scrunched into a few places ont he border which are then added to Switzerland.

Of coruse, it's also possible that by a larger Switzerland you aren't talking about adding really big chunks of territory, either, relative to OTL's Switzerland. Mine is probably over twice the size of OTL.
 

Max Sinister

Banned
Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria secede from Germany because they don't want to pay for easterners and northerners anymore, and BW joins Switzerland. Bang, just doubled its size.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

If Napoleon made Switzerland a kingdom for one of his marshals, and then instead of adding the little N Italian republics he creates all together, instead adds some of them to Switzerland...

Defeat Austria harder earlier, and maybe give Venetia to Switzerland

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

AYC

Very easy with extremely little effort, actually.

Of course, that's only if you mean "larger" in the sense of being any bigger than OTL, regardless of scope. In that case, you could have some of Switzerland's weird border anomalies become a part of it-specifically, this one and that one.

-AYC
 

LutzBrux

1848 – 1852: March Revolution and a new confederation

In my opinion the best opportunity for a larger Switzerland is following the March revolutions in the Germanic countries in and after 1848.



Due to a slightly less radical program than IOTL, the revolts in Baden, Württemberg, Palatinate, Hesse and Bavaria find a large following, not just in common circles, but also in the bourgeoisie.
The efforts in Frankfurt to create a German parliament and unite the country are followed closely and when it becomes evident that the Prussian king and the other monarchs will not accept the results of the constituant assembly, the Revolution brakes out in the whole of Southern Germany
It sweeps away the Grand-Duke of Baden,the King of Württemberg, the Grand-Duke of Hesse.
The Revolution rages also in Bavaria, but the sides are even.
The deposed rulers call the Prussian-led Norddeutscher Bund for help. In the ensuing campaign, the revolutionary armies manage to beat the the Federal nothern German troops (basically the inverse result of Kandern). This tilts the scales in Bavaria, which joins the revolutionary (=liberal) states.


Prussia and its allies fear a contagion of their lands and gather large armies to quench the revolution in the South. Even tough strongly supported by arms and logistics from France, the Napoleanic experience hinders the revolutionary states to officially approach France for help. The Austrian kuk monarchy is in turmoil. But even though in Deutsch-Österreich (rougly modern-day Austria), the revolutionary forces seem to win, the other Habsburg lands are fighting the revolution and old Fürst Metternich still pulls strings behind the scenes. The last thing the revolutionary states of BWHB need is an ally where the conservative order is restored and that turns against them.



In this situation 1849, the German speaking cantons of Switzerland suggest to accept the revlutionary states of BWHB as cantons in the Helvetic Confederation. The revolution was observed in this part of Switzerland with benvolence, as it represents ideals that have been since a long time supported by the protestant cantons in the North of Switzerland.
The other Swiss cantons are appalled : revolutionaries, left bourgeois agitators that removed the old order? And the risk of a conflict with the Norddeutsche Bund under Prussia and her allies? All reform projects in Switzerland, the project of a tighter union, a central state even, are shelved under the influence of the proposal.
The Tagsatzung (the Annual meeting of cantons) of 1850 in Baden, Switzerland becomes a one-subject event. The historic inner conflicts between the cantons break open. The French, Italian and Rumantsch speaking cantons leave the assembly in protest when it becomes clear that the German speakers will not change their mind. Undisturbed by this, the German speaking cantons vote for an integration of BWHB. Even though this vote is later contested, it is formally valid as it uses an age-old loophole in the procedural rules. Not least, the Northern Swiss cantons feel safe from Prussia as the new members of the Confederation lie like a bullwark between the Northern German states and Switzerland.


For a short moment in time, the Helvetic Confederation has grown substantially.


How does it go on?


With only thinly disguised support of France, BWHB manage to repell new attacks by Prussia and its allies wishing to re-establish the god-willed order.
Deutsch-Österreich, where the revolution finally wins and establishes itself, is under mounting pressure from the other parts of the kuk empire. A coalition of Czech, Slovak, Hungarians is massively supported by Prussia and treathens to march on Vienna. Prussian troops are ready to support them logistically. In this situation, the barely established revolutionary government in Vienna reaches out to BWHB and the Helvetic Confederation. Using the same legal loophole as when BWHB joined, an agreement is ratified that assures Vienna the full support of BWHB, Zurich, Berne, Basel, Aargau, Thurgau, Sankt Gallen. Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden, Glarus, Graubünden agree shortly after. The agreement furthermore sets out a roadmap of Austria to join the Confederation.


The Helvetic Confederation begins to split over this new breach of trust between its existing members and the still raging row on the acceptance of BWHB. Ticino is snapped up by revolutionary Italy, the French speaking cantons ask to join France under a special statute.


The now entirely German-speaking Confederation, now also containing Austria changes its name to (not decided yet).


The strong ties with France during the revolutionary phase cement the good relations, which hd already existed in the centuries before. Not to the point that the new Confederation would join the Franco-Prussian war on the side of France. After all, one speaks German, and that war remains a minor skirmish.
But the foundations and principal reasons IOTL of a catastrophic WWI are no longer given, the desasters of WWI and WWII will not happen.
 
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
That's not going to work at all for a big reason: Switzerland is just coming out of the Sonderbund War. The German cantons are somewhat divided by religion, and in any case the Swiss by this point viewed themselves as very separate from the German states. And finally the results of that was the emergence of the current federal structure in 1848. Switzerland is really too focused on internal issues at this point, and frankly didn't care about what was going on in Frankfurt.
 

Lalli

On 1918 government of Switzerland accepts annexation of Voralberg and then Liechtenstein join to Switzerland. During WW2 Hitler and Mussolini are even crazier (if possible) and invade Switzerland. After the war Switzerland gets Aosta and some small areas in Germany.
 

Monty Burns

There's plenty of medieval opportunities for Switzerland to expand, and moany of those would trigger a larger role of Switzerland in the intenrational stage, allowing for even more expansion. For example, if the Swiss would have taken Mulhouse and some other Southern German cities North of the Rhine, they'd always be between France and Austria in their wars.

As a later possible expansion, I'd go for the Napoleonic wars. Switzerland was within the French orbit, and quite firmly. It seemed to have been one of the least difficult satellites. Which makes me wonder why the French didn't expand them anyway. For example, the Tyrolians might have been much less inclined to revolt if they had been partitioned into self-ruling cantons of an expanded Switzerland. The French transportation lines to the East might have been more secure if everything North of the rhine had been Swiss, from Freuburg to the Allgäu, allowing the French to set up fortresses nuder their control in Swiss territory guarding a way almost to Munich.
The Congress of Vienna might get the idea of awarding lands to Switzerland to separate Frace from its Eastern neighbours, which of course requires that France is to be punished more than IOTL. Say Switzerland gets Southern Alsace and Belfort, then this cuts of a possible approach for French troops to the East. The Swiss may also get Savoy and the Val d'Aoste.
 
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
Monty Burns said:
There's plenty of medieval opportunities for Switzerland to expand, and moany of those would trigger a larger role of Switzerland in the intenrational stage, allowing for even more expansion. For example, if the Swiss would have taken Mulhouse and some other Southern German cities North of the Rhine, they'd always be between France and Austria in their wars.
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They did have Mulhouse and Rottweil anyway, and certainly weren't opposed to the idea of fighting Austria when they had a unified foreign policy.

As a later possible expansion, I'd go for the Napoleonic wars. Switzerland was within the French orbit, and quite firmly. It seemed to have been one of the least difficult satellites. Which makes me wonder why the French didn't expand them anyway. For example, the Tyrolians might have been much less inclined to revolt if they had been partitioned into self-ruling cantons of an expanded Switzerland. The French transportation lines to the East might have been more secure if everything North of the rhine had been Swiss, from Freuburg to the Allgäu, allowing the French to set up fortresses nuder their control in Swiss territory guarding a way almost to Munich.
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Mainly because they had been one of the most difficult satellites to start off with- France had tried to turn the confederation into a unitary republic, and the revolts and internal disputes were so bad that Napoleon basically just let them go back to something approximating the pre-war situation and then left them to it (apart from taking strategic bits and annexing them to France). Baden was a pretty secure ally anyway.

The Congress of Vienna might get the idea of awarding lands to Switzerland to separate Frace from its Eastern neighbours, which of course requires that France is to be punished more than IOTL. Say Switzerland gets Southern Alsace and Belfort, then this cuts of a possible approach for French troops to the East. The Swiss may also get Savoy and the Val d'Aoste.
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Well, they asked for the return of Mulhouse, the Chablais and the Pays de Gex OTL, but weren't given them.
 
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