Larger nations of South America

Kind of wondering about the development of Latin America. Could South America have ended up like North America (which has merely three large states), or rather like the SA of the Draka books? A large Colombia, or maybe a large Peruvian state matching the Spanish colonial department, plus a greater Brazilian Empire that swallowed up its Spanish neighbors, and finally Argentina and Chile to the south. Could that have happened?
 
It's fairly easy, I suppose. In Hispanophobe SoAm, it may be neccesary to reduce Amerindian cultural influence, as this is the main reason that some of the Hispanophobe states didn't mesh.

The choices I can think of for SoAmerican 'superstates' are:

1: Brazil. It's fine enough as is, except maybe give it the Guyanas.

2: A La Plata centered state not too dissimilar from the UPSA from Thande's LTTW. Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay, possibly Bolivia and Peru.

3: Gran Colombia survives: Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and possibly Peru.

4: Some sort of Amerindian state consisting of Paraguay, Bolivia, and highland Peru. Highland Brazil, northern Argentina, and Andean Ecuador and Colombia could also be included.

5: Uber Guyana: The three Guyanas plus Venezuela and a huge chunk of Brazil.

6: Patagonia/Araucania: Or something of the sort, inolving Argentina and Chile.

Obviously not all of these could exist simultaneously, but I'm sure a stable situation where at least three exist is possible.
 
Gran Colombia survives and Simon Bolivar does considerably better than Martin: Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, and Panama along with Bolivia and Peru if Bolivar does so much better than Martin.

Brazil with Paraguay and Uruguay due to wars.

Chile and Argentina united by Martin in response to the larger uber Gran Colombia of Bolivar.

Either the British, French, or Dutch gain control of the whole Guyanas and they unite.
 
Bigger Argentina includes Uruguay, Paraguay and Southern Bolivia.

Bigger Brazil includes some parts of Guiana, Venezuela and Bolivia.

Bigger Venezuela includes western part of Guyana.
 
Good ideas, but I'd like something that cuts into the core of the issue more.

Brazil is one country because it was the Portuguese colony. It had its own identity.

However, where did the national identities come from for all of the new nations of South America? Which of those identities were stronger and could have dominated over others?
 
Good ideas, but I'd like something that cuts into the core of the issue more.

Brazil is one country because it was the Portuguese colony. It had its own identity.

However, where did the national identities come from for all of the new nations of South America? Which of those identities were stronger and could have dominated over others?
Their identities come from two things.
1. Amerindian heritage (especially in the highlands)
2. Revolution. Gran Colombia and Bolivia share a common bond sorta like the 13 original American states do because of their revolution against Spain led by Bolivar while Argentina, Paraguay, and Chile share that same bond with Martin at the center. Peru shares a little of both as Bolivar and Martin did their thing there together and it was the most Spanish of the South American colonies due to Lima being the capital.

Uruguays national identity comes from being the redheaded stepchild of Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia, and Brazil.

as for the Guyana's it all sort of stems from their former (and in French Guiana's case, current) colonial masters. French Guiana is basically a tropical extension of France itself, Guyana is a latin version of England, and Suriname is a wierd combo of Dutch and Hindi heritage.

Now as for which identity is strongest, I'm not sure. I guess in the north it would be the shared Bolivarist Revolutionary heritage identity while in the south it would be the same but with Martin playing the role of George Washington.

did that make any sense?:p
 

Skokie

Banned
Brazil: already a superstar, could have swallowed up Uruguay and the Guyanas.

Gran Colombia: Could have expanded to include the Dominican Republic (there were talks) and expanded its holdings in Costa Rica.

Argentina: Could have conquered Paraguay and Uruguay (if they weren't supported by Brazil as buffer states). And of course the Falklands...I mean, las Islas Malvinas. ;)

Peru: Almost conquered Ecuador and Bolivia. Could have conquered more of the Amazon.

Paraguay: wanted to nibble away at its neighbors, but was swiftly smashed by the Triple Alliance.

No idea about Chile.
 
Kind of wondering about the development of Latin America. Could South America have ended up like North America ... plus a greater Brazilian Empire that swallowed up its Spanish neighbors, and finally Argentina and Chile to the south. Could that have happened?
So let's assume that right after or during the various independence movements the nations that come into existence are of the larger sort or grow into such over time. What does that do for the military sphere in this region? There were dozens of wars between the OTL little states, so would larger states make the region a more peaceful or more war prone continent? I tend to think there would be more fighting. Probably various countries would reach out to Europeans if they were desperate and even the US eventually. I'm fascinated by the thoughts of a Pax Brazil nation that envelopes most of the continent at any time in TTL.
 
Just remember one thing though: distance. One of the reasons why a united South America is not going to work in the 19th century is all the distances involved. Sounds extreme, yes, but remember that distance is going to be a big factor. Also, don't forget the old federalism vs. centralism debate, which is also a factor in the creation of modern-day South America. Generally, conservatives favour a unitary state, whilst liberals favour a federal republic.

Keeping that in mind, I think the only plausible piece of the OP would be Brazil going after the Guyanas. Other than that - don't hold your breath.
 
The outright annexation of Paraguay by Argentina or Brazil following the War of the Triple Alliance is not too improbable. Brazilian troops occupied the nation for years afterwards, and Argentina intended to take a large portion of Paraguayan territory, but was stopped by the intervention of US president Rutherford B. Hayes.
 
New Granada - Panama, Colombia, Venezuela, and Ecuador

Peru-Bolivia

La Plata (with Paraguay)

Chile

Brazil (with Uruguay)
 
I see a possibility for a few superstaes:

-Brazil, of course, is already around
-La Plata, Argentina+Chile+Uruguay+Paraguay - if they somehow manage to unite
-Highlands, Peru + Bolivia and maybe Ecuador. Peru and Bolivia started off united OTL so it's not hard to do.
-Gran Colombia, get constitutional reform to succeed and you can probably keep it alive.

I don't know what can be done about the Guyanas, though, short of Brazil conquering them somehow or the like...
 
Perhaps the theorized United States of South America, which may have been the result if Napoleon Bonaparte had survived, and the conspiracy to have him freed and secretly spirited away from his prison in St Helena to South America had thus succeeded?!
 
Just some ideas:

a) Gran-Colombia stays united (as was already said).
b) The Peru-Bolivian Confederation never breaks.
c) The French Guyana is granted to Portugal after the Napoleonic wars and stays with Brazil after the independence.
d) Brazil holds Uruguay or it stays united with Argentina.
e) The Brazilian government accepts the plan of partition of Paraguay after the Tripple Alliance War, giving to Argentina all of the country except for some territories that would be given to Brazil.
 
It's fairly easy, I suppose. In Hispanophobe SoAm, it may be neccesary to reduce Amerindian cultural influence, as this is the main reason that some of the Hispanophobe states didn't mesh.

LOL! When I read this, I seriously wondered how to get a South America that was scared of Hispanics!
 
It's fairly easy, I suppose. In Hispanophobe SoAm, it may be neccesary to reduce Amerindian cultural influence, as this is the main reason that some of the Hispanophobe states didn't mesh.

LOL! When I read this, I seriously wondered how to get a South America that was scared of Hispanics!
D'oh! I meant Hispanophone. :eek:

EDIT: Also, it's quite possible to get Brazil, the Guyanas, and the Amerindians to be fearful/hating of the hispanics. But I digress.
 
I am probably showing my ignorance or insensitivity to indigenous cultures, but why not just two major nations: Portugese-speaking Brazil and The Union of South America - all of the former Spanish colonies united a la the United States?
 
I am probably showing my ignorance or insensitivity to indigenous cultures, but why not just two major nations: Portugese-speaking Brazil and The Union of South America - all of the former Spanish colonies united a la the United States?
The problem is that a) Hispanophone SoAm wildly differs culturally, much more so than the US when the latter was founded, and b) it's improbable that one administration could have successfully governed all of that during the revolution, and would have most likely fallen apart.
 
Depending of how old the POD is, I think it is fairly possible to have just two states in south america: Gran Colombia and Brazil.
If, for example, Brazil kept Uruguay after Artigas, Buenos Aires would be fairly near, and nobody would support Argentinean independence.
And, if Brazil kept going west, (somehow crossing the Andes around 1860?), large portions of South America could be under its control.
Possible?
 
I am probably showing my ignorance or insensitivity to indigenous cultures, but why not just two major nations: Portugese-speaking Brazil and The Union of South America - all of the former Spanish colonies united a la the United States?
Also the Andes and Amazon effectivley split South America into three

1.the Northern Areas centered on the coast, Colombian Andes, and Orinoco River
2.the Highlands of Peru, Ecuador, Chile, and Bolivia
3. the southeastern coast and plains of Argentina, the "guays":)p), and Brazil.
(Doesn't count the fourth region of the Amazon since few people live there)

With no good communication system and cultures that varied heavily over that expanse there was simply no way a unfied government (even if you take away Brazil) maintains all of that.

In fact its a bit of a miracle Brazil stayed as big as it did, I could easily see some degree of balkanization early on.
 
Top