Larger Force Z

Redbeard

Banned
Unless Force Z can provide sufficient drinking water, AIUI, Percival had to surrender before the men ran out.
Certainly, which is also why defensive preparations would have had to include evacuations, storage of drinking water and prepared defenses of the installations just north of the city. Might not have been possible to hold forever, but each day and week count.
 
Certainly, which is also why defensive preparations would have had to include evacuations, storage of drinking water and prepared defenses of the installations just north of the city. Might not have been possible to hold forever, but each day and week count.
You give the defenders the will and capability to hold for another week Japan would have had to consolidate and build up supplies. Depending on shipping availability this could have taken a while if force z and submarines were out hunting. As I said previously the Thai railway along the kra peninsula was not sufficient to supply the Japanese forces.
 
If Force Z is still an active fleet, its focus when the Japanese get to Singapore should be the Dunkirk-like evacuation of the island, either to Rangoon (via Sumatra) or further.

But we've already covered this topic https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...cessfully-evacuate-singapore-jan-1942.391186/

If the enlarged Force Z is still around do the Japanese reach Singapore before the run out of ammunition? Personally if they've got a competent admiral in command I don't think so. He'd use his lighter ships to harass the Japanese advance down the west coast of Malaya while his submarines and MTBs play havoc with the Japanese supply ships.

They're not going to be able to blockade Singapore from the Dutch East Indies either, because in these circumstances the ABDA fleet (Force Z + Australian, Dutch and American ships) win the Battle of the Java Sea and the Japanese are unable to invade Java. With Java secure so is southern Sumatra, Bali and Timor.
 
If the enlarged Force Z is still around do the Japanese reach Singapore before the run out of ammunition?
Now we're in a circular loop. If Force Z remains the Japanese don't get to Singapore - if the Japanese get to Singapore Force Z will stop them.

I'm tapping out of this thread now.
 
If the enlarged Force Z is still around do the Japanese reach Singapore before the run out of ammunition? Personally if they've got a competent admiral in command I don't think so. He'd use his lighter ships to harass the Japanese advance down the west coast of Malaya while his submarines and MTBs play havoc with the Japanese supply ships.

They're not going to be able to blockade Singapore from the Dutch East Indies either, because in these circumstances the ABDA fleet (Force Z + Australian, Dutch and American ships) win the Battle of the Java Sea and the Japanese are unable to invade Java. With Java secure so is southern Sumatra, Bali and Timor.

I think this way overstates the impact of submarines and light forces. They can slow the Japanese down and impose higher casualties but I think playing havoc is a tad strong. The Japanese will roll them up and keep in mind that the Allies had a decent number of submarines OTL (yes I know this include American boats with lousy torpedoes but it also includes S boats and Dutch submarines) and they failed to stop the Japanese from doing what they wanted to do.

I've noticed a tendency on this forum when discussing alternate naval problems, there is often an assumption that putting in more submarines will stop the enemy cold.
 

hipper

Banned
Hermes had no outriggers, no crash barrier and there were no Hurricanes available to send to her, as she never left the Indian Ocean.

Hermes was going in for a refit to operate fighters just before she was sunk.
There were spare Sea hurricanes in the Indian Ocean as They were being operated from Indominable
 
Would Hermes have been able to operate non-folding wing Sea Hurricanes?
The non folding wing sea hurricane was just a hurricane with arrestor hook etc right? So same wingspan as a standard Hurricane?

If yes they wouldn't be able to use the elevators.

That said there's no reason they couldn't land and take off from HMS Hermes so I suppose you could choose to deck park a few if you are going to go with a deck park.
 
Playing havoc was perhaps overstating things but the Japanese were on such a shoestring budget logistically that almost any interuption to their supply line would soon become catastrophic. Anything that delays the Japanese increases the chance that Malaya can withstand the initial Japanese assault. Though the Commanwealth would have to be able to keep the sky neutral.

I've never forgoten an interview with a presumably junior member of commanding generals staff on World at War. He claimed that they were so short of food and ammunition he thought Percival was coming to ask for their surrender, not to offer his. You don't have to do all that much for the Japanese to be unable to take Singapore when they did.

Now if the Dutch East Indies fall then Singapore becomes indefensible. If Force Z or any of its surviving capital units (and as its ment to have been enlarged so there should,be some) joins up with the Dutch and refugee American in the Java Sea then at least initially the Japanese attempt to land in Java should be defeated for the time being anyway. The Japanese would return seeking their decisive engagement with their maim fleet. How that would turn out depends on what if any reinforcements the ABDA have recieved, particularly inthe air.
 
Playing havoc was perhaps overstating things but the Japanese were on such a shoestring budget logistically that almost any interuption to their supply line would soon become catastrophic. Anything that delays the Japanese increases the chance that Malaya can withstand the initial Japanese assault. Though the Commanwealth would have to be able to keep the sky neutral.

I've never forgoten an interview with a presumably junior member of commanding generals staff on World at War. He claimed that they were so short of food and ammunition he thought Percival was coming to ask for their surrender, not to offer his. You don't have to do all that much for the Japanese to be unable to take Singapore when they did.

Now if the Dutch East Indies fall then Singapore becomes indefensible. If Force Z or any of its surviving capital units (and as its ment to have been enlarged so there should,be some) joins up with the Dutch and refugee American in the Java Sea then at least initially the Japanese attempt to land in Java should be defeated for the time being anyway. The Japanese would return seeking their decisive engagement with their maim fleet. How that would turn out depends on what if any reinforcements the ABDA have recieved, particularly inthe air.

Your point about the decisive engagement is an interesting one. OTL the KB covered the landings on New Britain and New Ireland in late January 1942 and then hit Darwin and covered the landings on Java in late February. If the enlarged Force Z of TTL is alive and kicking into 1942, I could see the Japanese sending the KB to the South China Sea to deal with the problem.
 
This gets us back on topic nicely. So, Pearl Harbour has just happened. Presumably Force Z will quickly leave port, but what do they do? I assume the FAA is equally hampered by the weather. IMO, the smaller ships head up the Malay coast, while the big ships head to deep water.

First Force Z sails out and searches for any convoy east of Malaya. Force Z would be in four section; the first section would be the battleship Prince of Wales, battlecruiser Repulse, carriers Ark Royal and Hermes, cruisers York, Exeter, and Glasgow, and 12 destroyers. This section would provide air cover and if needed gun support from the capital ships. The second section would be the 4h cruiser division ( Fiji, Mauritius, Southampton, & Gloucester) with 4 destroyers. This section would be the scout for the battle fleet and to sink any convoy. The third section would be 6 submarines station at Kota Bharu and fourth section of 6 submarines station near Pattini and Singora.
 
I think this way overstates the impact of submarines and light forces. They can slow the Japanese down and impose higher casualties but I think playing havoc is a tad strong. The Japanese will roll them up and keep in mind that the Allies had a decent number of submarines OTL (yes I know this include American boats with lousy torpedoes but it also includes S boats and Dutch submarines) and they failed to stop the Japanese from doing what they wanted to do.

I've noticed a tendency on this forum when discussing alternate naval problems, there is often an assumption that putting in more submarines will stop the enemy cold.

In OTL many submarines were doing patrols solo and with torpedoes not working for the Americans, they fail badly. Admiral Somerville had admired the German tactic of using submarine Wolfpack and also Admiral Lockwood, that Lockwood would use it in 1943 and outward of the war in the Pacific. If Admiral Somerville could use this tactic in the Malaya Campaign, the Japanese are in trouble.
 
One of my darlings of the Hour is placing coastal forces (MTB Flotillas of say 6 MTBs) backed up by 1 or 2 Insect class gun boats that can operate in and around the shifting sandbanks based in places like Kota Bharu

These are relatively inexpensive vessels (certainly cheaper than Submarines for example) and would certainly threaten any landing force.
 
Playing havoc was perhaps overstating things but the Japanese were on such a shoestring budget logistically that almost any interuption to their supply line would soon become catastrophic. Anything that delays the Japanese increases the chance that Malaya can withstand the initial Japanese assault. Though the Commanwealth would have to be able to keep the sky neutral.

I've never forgoten an interview with a presumably junior member of commanding generals staff on World at War. He claimed that they were so short of food and ammunition he thought Percival was coming to ask for their surrender, not to offer his. You don't have to do all that much for the Japanese to be unable to take Singapore when they did.

TNow if the Dutch East Indies fall then Singapore becomes indefensible. If Force Z or any of its surviving capital units (and as its ment to have been enlarged so there should,be some) joins up with the Dutch and refugee American in the Java Sea then at least initially the Japanese attempt to land in Java should be defeated for the time being anyway. The Japanese would return seeking their decisive engagement with their maim fleet. How that would turn out depends on what if any reinforcements the ABDA have recieved, particularly inthe air.

If this larger Force Z was sent then that means there would be a larger Air Force in Malaya meaning more infantry division and tanks. But we are talking about Force Z and not what is happening on land. Also if Operation Matador was use,this could help out Force Z in attacking the invasion fleet.
 
The other thing I was going to mention is that the Japanese do not really need a carrier or carrier group to oppose a larger British fleet as most of the South China sea is in range of the IJNs twin engined Land based bomber fleet

So with the increased numbers of British ships - perhaps the Japanese could have if they have time could increase the number of land based bombers (88 attacked force Z OTL from 3 air groups - not sure exactly how many they had available) and possibly increase the number of land based A6ms they had to provide CAP for the Landing Zones 'as well as' the Bombers who would now have to contend with carrier based fighters
 
I'd certainly expect some reinforcement of the Army and Air Force but Malaya would still be a long way down the list of priorities for both services. What was sent would still largely be equipment the other theaters felt they didn't need. Some of the mountains of captured Italian equipment would be useful though.

As for operation Matador, I really can't see it ever being put into practice. The British Empire invading Siam would be po!itically unacceptable and would hand the Japanese a propaganda jackpot. They're not invading a fellow Asiatic nation but rescuing them from European Imperialists who have attacked the peaceful Siamese nation to add it to their empire.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
In OTL many submarines were doing patrols solo and with torpedoes not working for the Americans, they fail badly. Admiral Somerville had admired the German tactic of using submarine Wolfpack and also Admiral Lockwood, that Lockwood would use it in 1943 and outward of the war in the Pacific. If Admiral Somerville could use this tactic in the Malaya Campaign, the Japanese are in trouble.
Actually The Dutch navy of The interbellum was build around submarines instead of surface ships and had perfected wolfpack-like tactics to a degree that might have been higher than even The Kriegsmarine. Unfortunantly at The eve of The world war navalists rook over and all The advantages were squandered.
 
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