Large Irish immigrant community in Imperial Germany

Would it be possible to have a large Irish immigrant community develop in the industrial cities of Germany between the 1840s and 1914? Have it, like in Britain and America, be largely working class and (almost) as significant as the Rhur poles.

Where do you think they would settle?
Would they have a higher status than the Polish Community and be less discriminated against? How would they fair under the Kulturkampf?
Which political party would they support? The Centre Party or the Social Democrats?
Can you imagine them hating the British and funding revolutionary nationalists like the Fenians in America?
Could you see the Gaelic league opening branches in German cities?

What do you think would happen to them during the First World War, lynching for being British or solidarity for being the enemy of the enemy?
What about propaganda?
Do you think they would have helped Roger Casement's campaign?

What about their descendants fate during the interwar and Nazi eras?
 

asgasgadgag

Banned
Maybe they'd end up developing strong political machinces within the SDP similar to those within the Democratic Party in the United States. I could be wrong though, I don't have enough knowledge of German politics in this time period to know if there ever was the type of machine style politics that existed in the US. As Catholics on the surface they might be more inclined to support the Centre Party but could end up rejected as foreigners.

When the First World War broke out I imagine they'd be eager to prove they're patriotism and would enthusiastically enlist with the hope of breaking the back of the British empire. Maybe they'd be of special use to the German government in propagandizing towards captured Anglo-Irish Catholic soldiers and recruiting them to switch sides.

What would be the POD for TTL?
 

Pangur

Donor
Language would be the biggest barrier to this happening. The US, UK and Aus are english speaking - Germany is not
 
Language would be the biggest barrier to this happening. The US, UK and Aus are english speaking - Germany is not
This is true. Something would need to happen that'd make those areas unsuitable or making Germany more desirable- perhaps the little kingdoms/duchies/republics/etc. set up settlement areas for them during the Famine?
 
This is true. Something would need to happen that'd make those areas unsuitable or making Germany more desirable- perhaps the little kingdoms/duchies/republics/etc. set up settlement areas for them during the Famine?

From memory wasn't mainland Europe also suffering from the effects of the Blight at the same time as Ireland, would it be very likely that they could absorb some of the Irish population while dealing with their own internal issues?
 
Imperial Germany did became a country of net immigration in the 1890s, by 1910 there were 1.26 million immigrants in the German Reich, up from 206,000 in 1871. However, most the immigrants were from neighbouring countries. Of these nearly half were from Austria, around 10% were from the Netherlands and around 150,000 Italians, mostly from from Northern Italy were working in Germany, many in the Southern portion of the country.

In addition there was internal migration to the wealthier parts of the Reich, with around 400,000 Poles from Eastern Prussia were living in the Rhineland and Ruhr by 1914. However, an additional 580,000 Poles from Austrian-ruled Galicia and settled mostly in Eastern Germany to work as seasonal agricultural labourers, of these over half were women. The number of seasonal agricultural labourers admitted to the Reich in 1914 totalled 433,000 and was dominated by Poles, but included Italians, Scandinavians, and White Russians.

Austrian Poles also came in large numbers to work in the mines and industries of Silesia. Sudeten Germans too worked in the neighbouring industrial regions of Saxony In addition some 76,387 foreign Jews from Russia and Austria lived in Germany by 1910, settling mostly in cities.

Like Germany, peak emigration from Ireland had passed by the time Germany was industrializing. However, like England, Scotland and Wales the overseas emigration did not decline as fast. In Germany's peak year over 220,902 emigrants left the country in 1881, by 1913 that number was around had decreased to 25,843. The reason being perhaps the ability to speak English made the US, Britain and its dominions attractive destinations during the period of open borders prior to WWI.

For comparison the Irish born-population of England and Wales was the following:
1841 289,404
1851 519,959
1861 601,634
1871 566,540
1881 562,374
1891 458,315
1901 426,565
1911 375,325
1921 364,747

In Scotland it was
1841 126,321
1851 207,367
1861 204,083
1871 207,770
1881 218,745
1891 194,807
1901 205,064
1911 174,715
1921 159,020

Liverpool and Glasogw were the were principal cities of Irish immigrants with 22% of the latter's population being Irish born by 1861. Manchester too had a large Irish community.

Irish born in the USA
1850 961,719
1860 1,611,304
1870 1,855,827
1880 1,854,571
1890 1,871,509
1900 1,615,459
1910 1,343,125
1920 1,037,234

Irish Born in Canada
1861 255,852 (Upper Canada, Lower Canada, Nova Scotia, PEI)
1871 223,212
1881 185,526
1891 149,184
1901 101,629
1911 92,874
1921 93,301

Irish Born in Australia (I was unable to find the 1911 and 1921 numbers)
1861 177,405
1871 211,656
1891 228,232
1901 184,035
 
It would have to be a later migration, not blight-related. Germany was a net exporter of migrants until the 1880s, and didn't bexcome a real draw for foreign labour until the 1890s. There is no reason for Irish people to move there earlier (and even up until 1914, Germans went to the UK as seasonal migrant worker for the higher wages, so it's unlikely even then).

Assuming they do, I could see two scenarios. ONe would be augmenting/replacing the Ruhrpolen. This was one area where labour was always needed and language barriers were very much a secondary consideration. You could learn what you needed down the mine on the job, and a lot of Irish had experience as navvies and building labourers. The main problem I see is that even if they're looking for a job closer to home than the USA, Britain offers better pay for the same work.

The other scenario would be a kind of organic aggregation in the port cities. Irish sailors and labourers get stuck, a community develops (it happened with the Chinese IOTL until the Nazis ... that line ends every good story in German history :mad: ). Language wouldn't be a big concern, a large part of the population spoke English. But - why?

In either case, they would likely find an organisational home in the SPD, with ethnic clubs and co-ops. I can't see the community becoming significant enough to have their own party, and Zentrum is too locally rooted to be in early enough.
 
Language would be the biggest barrier to this happening. The US, UK and Aus are english speaking - Germany is not
There are two responses to that.
1) Many Irish people in the 19th century were still irish speaking; in 1840 such speakers numbered 4 million
2) many irish people also migrated to spanish speaking South Americ such as the railway engineers of Argentina.
 
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