Language WI - Alemannic German diverges to become a seperate language

What if Alemannic German further diverges from Standard German and other German dialects to become a separate language altogether?

Also how would this impact Alemannic separatism in the ATL up to the aftermath of WW2? Would the Swiss Germans and other Alemannic-speakers have sought to distance themselves as Germans in favor of a separate identity?

Could a larger ATL Liechtenstein composed of Vorarlberg and the Reutte District of Tyrol have adopted an Alemannic identity?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_separatism
 
Have heard contradictory answers on the mutual intelligibility of Alemannic and other German dialects, though some mention very limited mutual intelligibility of Highest Alemannic (including Walser) yet not sure whether it extends to the other Alemannic branches.

Perhaps using Highest Alemannic as a possible template (with possible influences from Gallo-Itallic, Franco-Provençal / Arpitan and Romansh) it is then wanked to dominate the rest of the Alemannic-speakers, it ends up allowing the people to adopt an Alemannic identity resulting from a successful ATL Alemannic separatism where the language is considered Germanic (like English, Dutch, Frisian and Scots) as opposed to simply a OTL German dialect with varying intelligibility.
 
Depending on your POD (and acceptance of Butterflies™), you could construct a TL where for some reason Martin Luther's version of the Bible either never gets created, or otherwise his "take" on the German language for the Bible doesn't take off; given that his interpretation of how local communities spoke formed an early standard for the German language to centralize around, you'd end up with a different paradigm in this ATL.

Or of course, you can manufacture a split between "Alemannia" and the rest of Germany (say, with a Germany dominated by Lower Saxony or another northern group), with German evolving differently from the mountain dialects.
 
In my Chaos TL, there are in fact three Bible translations into German during a few years, at most few decades - Northern, Middle and Alemannic German. I played with it - essentially it was like "Dutch stays a German dialect, Swiss becomes a full-fledged language". - Although at the end, the German technocracy integrates everything.
 
It would be enough for the ATL Germans in Switzerland and an enlarged Liechtenstein (with parts of Austria) to simply identify as Alemannic instead of Germans and adopt a Walser-style form of the Alemannic language, rather than simply establish a new Alemannia state. Guess a wanked Liechtenstein could rename itself Alemannia in the aftermath of WW2, being in some respects the opposite of Persia renaming itself Iran in 1935 under Reza Shah.
 
This isn't a linguistic WI, it's a political one. Swedish and Nynorsk are only separate languages because they're separate countries. They're closer to each other than several of the 'dialects' of German. So, get a situation where an Alemanic speaking state forms, and, tada, it's a separate language.
 
This isn't a linguistic WI, it's a political one. Swedish and Nynorsk are only separate languages because they're separate countries. They're closer to each other than several of the 'dialects' of German. So, get a situation where an Alemanic speaking state forms, and, tada, it's a separate language.

I would say Nynorsk are a bad example, in fact the best example would be Danish/Norwegian(Bokmål). You can as a Dane or Swede read Nynorsk, but I have meet Bokmål speaking Norwegian not having a clue about what a Nynorsk speaking Norwegian was saying.
 
Have heard contradictory answers on the mutual intelligibility of Alemannic and other German dialects, though some mention very limited mutual intelligibility of Highest Alemannic (including Walser) yet not sure whether it extends to the other Alemannic branches.

Perhaps using Highest Alemannic as a possible template (with possible influences from Gallo-Itallic, Franco-Provençal / Arpitan and Romansh) it is then wanked to dominate the rest of the Alemannic-speakers, it ends up allowing the people to adopt an Alemannic identity resulting from a successful ATL Alemannic separatism where the language is considered Germanic (like English, Dutch, Frisian and Scots) as opposed to simply a OTL German dialect with varying intelligibility.

Hm, mutual intelligibility is difficult...
This is written with modern speakers in mind - so it might not translate fully back in time.
For pretty much all Alemannic speakers other dialects are usually intelligible, though speech impediment or very thick pronunciations might be problematic. This might be related to the fact that Allemannic speaker are exposed to "standard German" in various media from a young age.
The other way around seems to be more problematic. Though I don't know how many people just complain that the don't understand someone because they just don't want to make the effort to actually listen. I know I complain sometimes when some Swiss from those narrow mountain valley's really get going over a couple of beer...



If you want to make it it's own language it should be possible, tough as mentioned tied to political and to some extent religious considerations.

Easiest way is probably to have someone in the early Calvinist days translate the bible as Luther did - but using an Allemanic dialect. Then when the states actually take an interest in language have the Swiss standardize on this variation early on. As it is it isn't that much of a stretch, considering their continued use of Allemanic for radio and TV broadcasts.
 
Hm, mutual intelligibility is difficult...
This is written with modern speakers in mind - so it might not translate fully back in time.
For pretty much all Alemannic speakers other dialects are usually intelligible, though speech impediment or very thick pronunciations might be problematic. This might be related to the fact that Allemannic speaker are exposed to "standard German" in various media from a young age.
The other way around seems to be more problematic. Though I don't know how many people just complain that the don't understand someone because they just don't want to make the effort to actually listen. I know I complain sometimes when some Swiss from those narrow mountain valley's really get going over a couple of beer...



If you want to make it it's own language it should be possible, tough as mentioned tied to political and to some extent religious considerations.

Easiest way is probably to have someone in the early Calvinist days translate the bible as Luther did - but using an Allemanic dialect. Then when the states actually take an interest in language have the Swiss standardize on this variation early on. As it is it isn't that much of a stretch, considering their continued use of Allemanic for radio and TV broadcasts.

Could the Swiss Reformed Church have translated the Bible into one of the more unintelligible dialects of Alemanic, which eventually becomes a fully fledged Germanic language as opposed to a German dialect?
 
OTL the political lines among "German" speakers were pretty fluid until the last 100-200 years. You have ranges of dialects flowing from one to another, and then between increased literacy and then a centralized state you get one dialect favored. Once you get a more standard written form, the pronunciation differences are less of a problem, and regional dialects are more about idiomatic expressions, and verb/adjective preferences.
 
Could the Swiss Reformed Church have translated the Bible into one of the more unintelligible dialects of Alemanic, which eventually becomes a fully fledged Germanic language as opposed to a German dialect?
Yes and no. The less intelligible dialects of Alemannic usually have less speaker. They are (in that alpine region at least) usually found in small villages in mountain valleys, the more remote the worse. If someone of a h.b. group translates the bible it most likely will occur in a city, where they had their strongholds. So he'd use a more intelligible variation.
Also: unless the writing has some kind of reach it won't make an impact. So it's got to be something that most Alemannic speaker can relate to easily, not some very difficult variation.

OTL the political lines among "German" speakers were pretty fluid until the last 100-200 years. You have ranges of dialects flowing from one to another, and then between increased literacy and then a centralized state you get one dialect favored. Once you get a more standard written form, the pronunciation differences are less of a problem, and regional dialects are more about idiomatic expressions, and verb/adjective preferences.

Uff, no, dialects are more than idioms and verb/adjective preference. If that was the case we'd be talking accents.
Alemannic, for example, lacks a whole kind of past tense that standard German has. So there are notable grammar differences.
There are also quite a few shifts of pronunciation that it doesn't have that other German dialects do have.
 
If translating the Bible into one of the more unintelligible dialects is less likely, could the more intelligible dialects of Alemannic have still drifted away from a German dialect to a Germanic language?
 
Why did OTL Zürich bibles drift from Alemannic dialect, from the first sections in 1524, to Luther´s dialect, while United Provinces stayed firm to establishing standard of Dutch?
 
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