Lands of Red and Gold

Status
Not open for further replies.
A question: is even there yet, at this time, any book of medicine to be translated from Dutch? As in, it's obvious that some Tjibarr can and will learn Dutch, but, to my knowledge, medical expertise of this era was essentially written in Latin with some limited exceptions (probably Italian and French, I think German and English too, and I suppose Spanish, if I remember correctly). Getting medical terms from barber-surgeons of the ships is relatively easy. But learning Latin wholesale would take pretty longer I think...

Some medical works were translated into living European languages. De Materia Medica, probably the most important medical text of the period, had been translated into French, German, Italian and Spanish starting in the mid-sixteenth century, if the Genocide can be trusted.

I don't know whether Dutch translations were also made, though it's certainly possible. Even if not, while German and Dutch were not entirely mutually intelligible 350-odd years ago, they were closer than they were now. With patience and probably some European assistance, Gunnagal who had learned to read Dutch could cope writh written German texts.

On the other hand, some medical texts were probably still only available in Latin. As you say, those will be harder to access.

Oh fuck. Massive capitalist slave states in the North East exporting to the Europeans and Asians.

I don't know about massive - these things are relative - but yes, sugar plantations along much of the *Queensland coast. I don't know how much exportation will be done to Europe - which has closer sources - or Asia - ditto - but sugar will be readily exportable within the surviving societies of Australia, New Zealand and many of the Pacific islands.

The Dutch might still have issues with selling guns to the locals, but what about fireworks?

Fireworks were barely known in Europe at the time, if memory serves. They would be unlikely to be a major item of trade from Europe to Aururia, although China and/or Japan might well be places that supply them. (It's already been mentioned that the Nuttana in northeastern Aururia will be getting guns via Japan in the 1640s).

Rockets etc were known in Europe as weapons of war, but would be classed as such by the Dutch (and not legally traded).

Also, it might lead to rocket experiments, and rocketry is probably simpler than gunsmithing to pick up in terms of what you need to be able to machine (sophisticated rockets are of course a whole different kettle of fish).

I'm not so sure that useful rockets are something which can be learned easily. The intricate technical details may be different from gunsmithing, but being too near a rocket misfire is not a mistake which people would live to make twice. Tjibarr would have problems even making viable powder, let alone experimenting with the proportions and technology needed to make viable rockets.

I do wonder how long before the first scientific (more-or-less) expeditions set out from Tjibarr? If the Dutch (and English) aren't willing to sell the information and expertise the Gunnagalic folk know they have, then the only alternative is to follow them home and learn those things there.

This is a very good question. Tjibarr is probably the only Aururian nation capable of attempting the same feat that Meiji Japan did in sending students abroad to Europe to learn their ways and bring back what they wanted.

Of course, Tjibarr has a much smaller population and is starting from a much lower technological base than Meiji Japan, so how much the Gunnagal can learn remains to be seen.

I love this, subbed.

Merci.

So, when is that shoe going to drop? We've already seen the effects of Aururian diseases in Europe with this king dead, that dynasty gone, this nation imploding, etc., etc., etc. When is the feces going to hit the fan in Aururia?

The effects of European disease in Aururia have already started - and started, in fact, even before Aururian diseases hit the Old World. So far, Aururia has been hit by syphilis, tuberculosis, mumps and (recently) chickenpox, which between them has already killed about 1 person in 8 (12.5% of the pre-contact population), though there has of course been some population growth since then too.

The really big killers (smallpox, measles, typhus) and a lot of "lesser" killers are yet to hit, and will come one by one. Basically, what happens is that the diseases which produce lots of asymptomatic carriers (mumps, syphilis, tuberculosis) or which adults can have infectious relapses (chickenpox) hit early, while others will take longer.

The difference between the disease impacts on Europe and Aururia is that the nature of diseases, shipping lanes and technology means that the rest of the world basically takes one big hit from Aururian diseases and then starts to recover. Aururia faces a slower, more insidious hit of one disease after another, spaced over perhaps half a century or so for the first arrival of each of the diseases.

This staggered arrival - a natural consequence of the distances involved - oddly enough means that some Aururian societies have a better chance of surviving. All things are relative, but having a 65-70+% dieoff at once would basically kill every native state. Having the same decline over more than a century (including repeated epidemics, not just first arrival) is very very bad, but is closer to being survivable.

The worst die-off at once will be either smallpox (unless the Variola minor variant arrives first) or measles. Which will be like the Antonine Plague hitting ancient Rome - very bad, but not in itself social collapse.

Your writing is excellent as always and I'm continually amazed out how you're able to draw us into this fantastic world. I read posts set in 1600s Aururia with great foreboding however.

In thematic terms, what I plan to show in this timeline is a three-act sequence, basically optimism - despair - rebirth. This is still the closing scenes of Act One. Much of what is being seen now will not survive, but some will.

In terms of particular societies:

Thoughtful people in Tjibarr are thinking about forming a kunduri monopoly in order to trade more fairly with the Dutch? So what. How long will that last when two-thirds of the people who grow kunduri are dead?

Tjibarr is in probably the best position to survive of any native Aururian society. The stresses will be very very bad, but may perhaps be survived. They will need to adapt in many ways, of course, but they do have some potential.

The islanders are thinking of sailing on trading voyages to the Indies and Asia? So what. How many ships can they man when two-thirds of their population is dead?

The Islanders as they were will not survive, but one of their descendant societies (the Nuttana) will carry on those trading voyages. They are fortunate in that they have plenty of other societies to recruit manpower from (Kiyungu and Maori), so even with the general population decline, they can sustain something close to their existing numbers.

They will also have the lowest death rates of any native society, because of one trick of fortune. One of the reasons why virgin-soil epidemics are so bad was because everyone gets sick at once, so there is no-one around to provide palliative care to those who are ill, and who might even survive given that care.

For the Nuttana who send traders to the Indies and Japan, the crews will already have caught most of those diseases. Many of those sailors will die of those diseases, of course, but those who come home will be immune when the diseases later hit in Aururia - and can actually provide some care
to the afflicted.

Those kooks might fill the few remaining openings in their glass pyramid? So what. How many priests, kings, and warriors can the peasantry support after two-thirds of them die?

For what it's worth, I actually expect the Daluming sequence to play out before the worst killer diseases arrive.

Aururia is so agriculturally marginal. The societies rest on a slender reed and the surpluses are relatively small. What's going to happen to those societies when the people who hew the wood, draw the water, and all the rest die off in droves? The peasantry who feed everyone are going to be more effected by the plagues too.

All true. There is going to be a much smaller population, although this affects both the supply and demand for food.

The one consolation is that while Aururia is agriculturally marginal, the perennial crops provide some cushioning - they can do more with fewer workers than other agriculture of the time. In times this bad, the most marginal lands are abandoned, while the remaining workers can concentrate on the most fertile, productive lands. This won't make up for everything, but I don't actually think that the survivors in, say, Tjibarr will be short of food. Short of labour for purposes other than subsistence agriculture, yes, but probably not short of food.

While Nyulinga's and Northwind's plans are interesting, they're also doomed. Their world and all it's assumptions will be gone and gone soon.

They will need to adapt, and adapt keenly and quickly, but I do think that their society will survive in some form. Their plans will be part of that change - though there will be more going on.

So, when is the other shoe going to drop?

The short answer is bit by bit. Of the main infectious diseases which were so devastating to isolated societies in OTL, my current thinking is as follows:

Smallpox - will hit sometime around 1660-1665
Measles - will hit around 1680 (the shipping distances make this disease very hard to get to Australia)
Influenza - will hit by 1655, brought into northern Australia with increased trade (the shipping lanes are too long to bring it from Europe)
Typhus - will first appear around 1640, but flare ups will mostly be associated with the Proxy Wars
Diptheria - still not certain, since the disease will await the arrival of a (rare) asympomatic carrier - the shipping distances are too long to really transmit it otherwise
Mumps - already arrived
Malaria - present in northern Australia before European contact. Will be confined there, and while people can die from it, Australian mosquitoes are much less efficient at transmitting the disease than mosquitoes in tropical Africa or South America
Whooping Cough - still not determined
Tuberculosis - already arrived
Plague - will only arrive in the steamship era
Yellow Fever - will probably never get established in Australia (it never did in OTL)
Chickenpox - already arrived

Have the Atjuntja learned the secrets of gun powder yet from there European (Dutch if I remember correctly) prisoners of war yet?

This will be touched on in an upcoming post, but the Yadji have learned in general terms what goes into gunpowder. Producing the required saltpetre in the required quantities is another story, as is knowing the exact proportions required.
 
Due to the native population having a more diverse genetic pool than the native americans, a virgin soil infection will look more like the black plague ala 1350 Europe than americas.

so its more like 1/3 population loss, than 2/3 or more like 90%.

Genetics were not and are not the primary of disease lethality.
 
I don't know about massive - these things are relative - but yes, sugar plantations along much of the *Queensland coast. I don't know how much exportation will be done to Europe - which has closer sources - or Asia - ditto - but sugar will be readily exportable within the surviving societies of Australia, New Zealand and many of the Pacific islands.

My understanding is that labour supply is a limiting factor with sugar production, and that in this period the market demand is functionally infinite. The perversity of the triangle trade relied on the European demand for sugar products.

If sugar is a sufficient motivator for spending six months on a leaky boat, then the sugar run might become as important as the tea run?

I defer to your almost certainly superior knowledge of Indian Ocean economics in the period; but, North Queensland, with PIs and failed Maori statelettes' populations just ready for enslavement, and sugar as an export looks like something very horrible waiting to happen. If not under European control, then under European direction. If you need any hints here, I'd suggest what is now Indonesia might be an example, given the extended period of "pacification" required.

In fact it is curious as to why *Jared Diamond hasn't called "Indonesia" as part of the third world?

So now I'm going to ask that horrible question, now that humans are going to be regularly breaching the timor gap for trade, how does "Indonesia" integrate into the Aurorian trade network? What happens at the margins of the Aurorian package when elements of the "Indonesian" package are imported by marginal communities needing calories but having massive cash crops?

yours,
Sam R.
 
Genetics were not and are not the primary of disease lethality.

There's still some argument on that point. There was a link posted earlier in this thread (I'll try to track it down) which suggested out that if a virus spreads between people who are genetically very similar - especially in the genes linked to the immune system - then the virus is much more likely to kill the next people it hits. I haven't looked into that matter in more detail, but it's at least possible.

My understanding is that labour supply is a limiting factor with sugar production, and that in this period the market demand is functionally infinite. The perversity of the triangle trade relied on the European demand for sugar products.

If sugar is a sufficient motivator for spending six months on a leaky boat, then the sugar run might become as important as the tea run?

I'm not sure about the demand limit for sugar in this period, so this is a possibility. I'd need to look more into why sugar production in Asia - which happened in OTL - didn't get exported into Europe in a much larger quantity. Shipping costs would be higher and travel times longer, of course. Maybe the limits on existing shipping and greater focus on spices played a part, or maybe the local Asian economies just weren't oriented for export of sugar (consumed everything they produced, perhaps).

If those obstacles can be overcome, then yes, the sugar run from *Queensland may be as important an export product from Aururia as the local spices.

I defer to your almost certainly superior knowledge of Indian Ocean economics in the period; but, North Queensland, with PIs and failed Maori statelettes' populations just ready for enslavement, and sugar as an export looks like something very horrible waiting to happen. If not under European control, then under European direction. If you need any hints here, I'd suggest what is now Indonesia might be an example, given the extended period of "pacification" required.

As has been hinted at, the Nuttana (a fusion of several Aururian cultures, including the Islanders as shipbuilders) along the northern Queensland coast will develop into a bunch of sugar producing colonies using some form of indentured or slave labour. The results of this will not be entirely pretty.

In fact it is curious as to why *Jared Diamond hasn't called "Indonesia" as part of the third world?

Depending on who you ask, New Guinea and nearby islands are sometimes part of the third world. The dividing line can be drawn differently based on the level of contact between Indonesia and the mainland, or on biogeography. Sumatra and Java are considered part of the Old World because of their much more ancient trade links, as well as biogeography.

So now I'm going to ask that horrible question, now that humans are going to be regularly breaching the timor gap for trade, how does "Indonesia" integrate into the Aurorian trade network? What happens at the margins of the Aurorian package when elements of the "Indonesian" package are imported by marginal communities needing calories but having massive cash crops?

The Nuttana states (and any European sugar colonies) will have some level of integration into the Indonesian trade network, although I haven't worked out the details. It's safe to assume that the Nuttana will be getting their indentured labour from somewhere.. and selling their products, too.

Ditto religous contact - the Nuttana will be actively trying to convert the coastal peoples around much of OTL Indonesia (and further east in the Solomons, too).

For OTL Arnhem Land and northwestern WA, this may become a Dutch preserve, or possibly Portuguese, with applicable trading links.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
As has been hinted at, the Nuttana (a fusion of several Aururian cultures, including the Islanders as shipbuilders) along the northern Queensland coast will develop into a bunch of sugar producing colonies using some form of indentured or slave labour.

Will the slaves be pacific islanders?
 
Something that hasn't been explored so far in your breathtaking TL is a surviving Maori naval tradition. As you mentioned towards the beginning of this work, the Maori discovered Aururia early on in their settlement of Aoteroa, and sustained maritime contact, something which they lost after a couple centuries of relative isolation in OTL.

Obviously the Maori have built a name for themselves in eastern Aururia as sailors, only recently becoming surpassed by the Nangu and the fledgling Nuttana civilization. Since they have a reason ITTL to continue building canoes and studying the stars and currents, there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't reach out to societies other than the Aururia. IOTL there was some Maori contact with Tonga and the Cook Islanders, so the question is how much heavier is this contact ITTL?

I'm wondering what this could do to Polynesia's socio politics. You have a fairly unparalleled situation in Polynesia history; a large, settled population with ocean-going capabilities and a history of economic and political integration with overseas societies. Might have a ripple effect of longer-lasting trade networks across Polynesia... or beyond. (Not to mention trans-islandic invasions, which IIRC were a known phenomenon IOTL before naval tradition started to whither on the vine).
 

forget

Banned
Would of thought Aururia and Maori would be trading more with Papua New Guinea because of close proximity and rich natural resources.
I know there are a lot of different tribes in PNG but they cant all be unfriendly and or cannibals.:(
PNG is the most ignored section of TL I think, for no good reason I can think of.
 
Last edited:

Flubber

Banned
Would of thought Aururia and Maori would be trading more with Papua New Guinea because of close proximity and rich natural resources.


Rich natural resources? In the 20th and 21st Century certainly. In the 17th Century not so much.
 

Flubber

Banned
In thematic terms, what I plan to show in this timeline is a three-act sequence, basically optimism - despair - rebirth. This is still the closing scenes of Act One. Much of what is being seen now will not survive, but some will.


Thank you for your measured and thoughtful reply to my off-the-cuff screed.

Learning about your planned three-act structure made me realize we're just now starting to read the end of the beginning, aren't we?
 
Something that hasn't been explored so far in your breathtaking TL is a surviving Maori naval tradition. As you mentioned towards the beginning of this work, the Maori discovered Aururia early on in their settlement of Aoteroa, and sustained maritime contact, something which they lost after a couple centuries of relative isolation in OTL.

Obviously the Maori have built a name for themselves in eastern Aururia as sailors, only recently becoming surpassed by the Nangu and the fledgling Nuttana civilization. Since they have a reason ITTL to continue building canoes and studying the stars and currents, there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't reach out to societies other than the Aururia. IOTL there was some Maori contact with Tonga and the Cook Islanders, so the question is how much heavier is this contact ITTL?

I'm wondering what this could do to Polynesia's socio politics. You have a fairly unparalleled situation in Polynesia history; a large, settled population with ocean-going capabilities and a history of economic and political integration with overseas societies. Might have a ripple effect of longer-lasting trade networks across Polynesia... or beyond. (Not to mention trans-islandic invasions, which IIRC were a known phenomenon IOTL before naval tradition started to whither on the vine).

I may be misremembering this, but didn't Jared say there wasn't a lot of contact back to the islands?
 
Will the slaves be pacific islanders?

Among others. Think blackbirders for those. However there will be plenty of others. Maori prisoners of war/captives sold as slaves, often for sugar in exchange (!), will be the largest single group. Also some peoples from New Guinea, the Solomons, and possibly other parts of OTL Indonesia, who will be valuable because of their disease resistance.

Worse than the sugar plantations of the Americas?

On the whole no, but mostly because the disease environment isn't as bad, rather than anything else.

Something that hasn't been explored so far in your breathtaking TL is a surviving Maori naval tradition. As you mentioned towards the beginning of this work, the Maori discovered Aururia early on in their settlement of Aoteroa, and sustained maritime contact, something which they lost after a couple centuries of relative isolation in OTL.

The Maori have continued their naval tradition ITTL, of course, and to a degree developed their shipbuilding.

However, in terms of ongoing contact, the important thing is that pretty much every trade good the Maori want is in Aururia. The Maori are a Bronze Age society - albeit with limited supplies of bronze - and can produce a lot of goods themselves. There isn't actually much which the Maori want that is produced in Polynesia.

This is why the Maori don't have much ongoing contact with Polynesia. There is a little: family links, the odd adventurous sort, a few people displaced by war, and so forth. But not much motivation to maintain ongoing trade, since the Pacific Islands have virtually nothing that the Maori want that they can't obtain closer to home.

Would of thought Aururia and Maori would be trading more with Papua New Guinea because of close proximity and rich natural resources.

The problems with sailing to PNG in a major way are three-fold:
- the currents and winds make it easy to sail south to north, but harder to sail back again, so explorers have trouble coming back
- the coastal peoples in Queensland along the way don't have much that's of interest, and trying to navigate the Great Barrier Reef is a pain, so there's not much motivation to keep pushing north
- even having reached PNG, there still isn't a lot that the people of PNG have that's worth trading for, from a Maori or Nangu point of view, that can't be found closer to home. Bird of paradise feathers are nice, but still, overall, there's not much incentive.

So while the Maori would presumably have reached PNG at some point, they stopped visiting after a while. Even within Aururia, they stopped sailing past the Daluming kingdom, mostly because they didn't find that the places further north offered much that was worth the extra effort. (Daluming was hostile, and spices could be found closer to home).

Thank you for your measured and thoughtful reply to my off-the-cuff screed.

Learning about your planned three-act structure made me realize we're just now starting to read the end of the beginning, aren't we?

Yes, that's about where things are up to. The beginning was the longest of the 3 acts - although the first 20 posts or so were really an extended prologue - but it's just about at its end. The Proxy Wars and what follows are where things start to move into Act 2.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
I know you mentioned that some Australian livestock have been introduced elsewhere in the Pacific. Will emus be among them?
 
Carry eggs? Even if they hatch en route, theyll still be relatively small and manageable.

Huh...it's a nice idea, but incubating them properly and protecting them from salt spray could be a big problem. Maybe if they have an emu farmer on the voyage with them, it could work.

I actually didn't think of baby emus. They could transport them as babies, but I don't know if such large livestock would be desirable on an island environment, so I guess it depends on which island the voyagers are from.
 
I know you mentioned that some Australian livestock have been introduced elsewhere in the Pacific. Will emus be among them?

I doubt it. Voyages are rather infrequent, and getting emus to survive an ~3000 km voyage is unlikely. It would need to be quite a trip.

I think geese and possibly quolls are more likely. Emus would be a little much to carry, even for Polynesian sailors.

Ducks, possibly geese, and maybe quolls. Quolls could be transported, but establishing a viable breeding population may be difficult except on larger islands.

P.S. Suprised anyone hasn't commented on the Turtledoves easter eggs in this post. Were they too well hidden?
 
Ducks, possibly geese, and maybe quolls. Quolls could be transported, but establishing a viable breeding population may be difficult except on larger islands.

I was thinking that quolls could do well hunting Polynesian rats. Though the quolls might find themselves replacing the rats as an emergency food source if bad times hit the islands their on.

P.S. Suprised anyone hasn't commented on the Turtledoves easter eggs in this post. Were they too well hidden?

Flew right over my head, but I have been sleep deprived lately.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top