Lands of Red and Gold, Act II

Burn the heathen!

Wait... Is that even a Yadji thing?
Seems more up the Atjuntja alley, though who can guess with imperialists from so far west of Port Phillip.

For a bit of a random question, are any of the ethnicities currently controlled by the Junditmara empire significant enough to have names/regions of their own, similar to Tiyanjara?
 
So you’re saying, the most likely outcome is a Yadji-wank? Repressive theocrats backed by English guns marching into a ruined five rivers? Malligo is the hero we need.
Malligo was the implementer, but the basic idea came from Gurragang. A couple of other White notables added some refinements. They had to go to the Blues because those were the faction which is mostly closely associated with Plirism (of a particular school), and had enough adherents to choose who would make for the most convincing main player (Malligo was the choice) and supplied the bulk of the Harmony Battalion.

Most likely outcome if the Hunter failed would have been either a Yadji conquest, or the Dutch picking up the pieces in the Five Rivers.

I for one welcome our new Yadji overlords.
Five Rivers flowing in Five Directions.... I'd rather be a Patjimunra.
Not sure either option is attractive, actually. Time to make for the highlands and load up on guns.

Burn the heathen!

Wait... Is that even a Yadji thing?
Yadji would consider burning a heathen to be a waste of good firewood. They prefer to make their religious lessons rather more pointed.

For a bit of a random question, are any of the ethnicities currently controlled by the Junditmara empire significant enough to have names/regions of their own, similar to Tiyanjara?
The Giratji are the largest remaining distinctive subject ethnicity, who still occupy a large region, although they are slightly more assimilated than the Kurnawal ever were. They are essentially west of the Kurnawal (parts of West Gippsland, the area of OTL Greater Melbourne, Geelong, and some surrounding territory). They could potentially break away, particularly as they are becoming much more Christianised than the Junditmara. The Yadilli in the western edge of Durigal also remain very distinctive (following their own school of Plirism), but are not really numerous enough to form their own region. There are other ethnicities, of which the Tiwarang and Yotjuwal are the largest, but those are relatively more assimilated.
 
In terms of comparisons, think of the history of European conquest in India. European armies had only a limited military advantage over Indian armies - basically better infantry discipline - and no population advantage, but they still managed to conquer most of India. This did involve a couple of lucky breaks at time, but mostly it was because European control started small and expanded gradually. Aururia is not united, and has a far smaller population than India, so potentially Europeans could do something similar there. They already have toeholds near most of it, after all.

On the other hand, European colonial control is by no means guaranteed, either.

Functionally, I count the following as areas which didn't come under colonial control of Europeans (or equivalents by descendants of Europeans)
1) Ethiopia
2) Persia
3) Thailand
4) China
5) Japan (with Korea as being under colonial control, just not European control)

with
6) New Zealand as an almost.

2&3 were to some degree of being a buffer zone, 4 was too big and Japan combined being at the "end of the road" with some good decisions.

The problem is that I don't think Aururia is a population too large to swallow in one bite and hasn't slammed the door as much as the Japanese have. Unfortunately, I don't think the model for Aururia is India, I think it is Southern Africa. :(
 
The problem is that I don't think Aururia is a population too large to swallow in one bite and hasn't slammed the door as much as the Japanese have. Unfortunately, I don't think the model for Aururia is India, I think it is Southern Africa. :(

I see where you're coming from, but I'm skeptical. With South Africa (and OTL Australia) there's the idea that the areas would never be profitable as colonial ventures without European settlers to mine for minerals and (in Australia's case) introduce more conventional methods of farming and ranching. With Aururia (as with India) there's a population that has been farming, ranching, and mining for centuries--all the colonialist has to do is tax them.

Of course, not all Aururia fits that description. Which is why if there ever is a South-African-style settler state, I'm betting it will be centered in the Kimberley and maybe extend down to Pilbara, with an economy based on beef and mining with some pearling and fishing on the side.
 
Functionally, I count the following as areas which didn't come under colonial control of Europeans (or equivalents by descendants of Europeans)
1) Ethiopia
2) Persia
3) Thailand
4) China
5) Japan (with Korea as being under colonial control, just not European control)

with
6) New Zealand as an almost.

2&3 were to some degree of being a buffer zone, 4 was too big and Japan combined being at the "end of the road" with some good decisions.

The problem is that I don't think Aururia is a population too large to swallow in one bite and hasn't slammed the door as much as the Japanese have. Unfortunately, I don't think the model for Aururia is India, I think it is Southern Africa. :(
eh, there's a lot more people then there were in South Africa at the time of settlement and the circumstances are quite different from Southern Africa, it might end up more of a southeast Asia then anything.
 
Functionally, I count the following as areas which didn't come under colonial control of Europeans (or equivalents by descendants of Europeans)
1) Ethiopia
2) Persia
3) Thailand
4) China
5) Japan (with Korea as being under colonial control, just not European control)

with
6) New Zealand as an almost.

2&3 were to some degree of being a buffer zone, 4 was too big and Japan combined being at the "end of the road" with some good decisions.

The problem is that I don't think Aururia is a population too large to swallow in one bite and hasn't slammed the door as much as the Japanese have. Unfortunately, I don't think the model for Aururia is India, I think it is Southern Africa. :(

This seems to assume that the 'new imperialism' era of colonialism was inevitable and that Europe is inevitably going to reach the same level of ambition and power that they did otl.

It might be the Australians survive because in this timeline Europe doesn't due to changes caused by the plagues etc.
 
The problem is that I don't think Aururia is a population too large to swallow in one bite and hasn't slammed the door as much as the Japanese have. Unfortunately, I don't think the model for Aururia is India, I think it is Southern Africa. :(
Well, the other factor which led to European (British) conquest of India was when the British were successful in driving the French out of India. (As a major player, that is; the French were of course not driven out entirely). Before that, Indian rulers were able to play the colonial powers against each other almost as much as Europeans played different states against each other.

So a crucial factor for the Aururians will be whether a single colonial power ever gains a dominant position in Aururia vis a vis the other European powers. Also, while Aururia is of course much less populous than India, it is still geographically large. That helps to spread around the European powers too.

I see where you're coming from, but I'm skeptical. With South Africa (and OTL Australia) there's the idea that the areas would never be profitable as colonial ventures without European settlers to mine for minerals and (in Australia's case) introduce more conventional methods of farming and ranching. With Aururia (as with India) there's a population that has been farming, ranching, and mining for centuries--all the colonialist has to do is tax them.

Of course, not all Aururia fits that description. Which is why if there ever is a South-African-style settler state, I'm betting it will be centered in the Kimberley and maybe extend down to Pilbara, with an economy based on beef and mining with some pearling and fishing on the side.
I've noted for a while that the agricultural regions of Aururia just don't work for settler colonialism - nor are the trading companies the ones to push settler colonialism anyway. The European powers are going for trade and resource extraction, and to a lesser degree having a captive market for their products. Naturally, mission creep is a real thing, but that probably doesn't mean turning into settler colonies.

In terms of the north of Aururia, I'd note that this really is not an attractive area for European settlers. Even when settling the rest of Australia in OTL, the British struggled to place colonies in northern Australia, with several failures and very low settlement even after they managed to get a colony to stick.

eh, there's a lot more people then there were in South Africa at the time of settlement and the circumstances are quite different from Southern Africa, it might end up more of a southeast Asia then anything.
There's several possible models, certainly. At one end is "Mexico" - large parts of the population of indigenous descent, but significant displacement of indigenous languages and many aspects of indigenous culture - while at the other end is the Siam or Japan model. (In broad terms; nothing is exactly the same). Where things fall along that spectrum is a good question.

This seems to assume that the 'new imperialism' era of colonialism was inevitable and that Europe is inevitably going to reach the same level of ambition and power that they did otl.

It might be the Australians survive because in this timeline Europe doesn't due to changes caused by the plagues etc.
I think it's safe to say that there will be a form of European colonialism which influences much of the world. Whether that's exactly the same as the 'new imperialism' era is of course more difficult to answer. While I certainly don't think that new imperialism was inevitable, I do think that it's still probable in circumstances where Europe is (a) industrialising and growing economically; and (b) is disunited enough to have competition between European powers.

So short answer: whether new imperialism as we know it happens is one thing, but increasing European pressure is still likely even if there's not quite the same push as happened in OTL.
 
Is the Industrial Revolution/Age of Steam still on track to arrive later in the 18th century in this timeline?
There will be an industrial revolution (or perhaps more than one), but it's probably a couple of decades behind OTL, due to the population decline from the plagues and relatively smaller markets as a result. I still haven't settled on exact dates, though, so it's possible that I may move the timeframes around a bit.
 
Just a question, I know you've covered the Maori extensively, with the Pakanga in particular. But my question, which may have been covered, is if the Maori practice cannibalism as they did in OTL. Also how is cannibalism treated by societies in Aururia?
 
Just a question, I know you've covered the Maori extensively, with the Pakanga in particular. But my question, which may have been covered, is if the Maori practice cannibalism as they did in OTL. Also how is cannibalism treated by societies in Aururia?

And fava beans: how well do they grow in Aururia?

I'd say India or SE Asia (continental, not Greater Indonesia) as models for European colonization: these are advanced, densely populated gunpowder states with a quite canny political tradition, and the area is simply a hellagone long way from Europe: the logistics before the 19th century are pretty poor for moving large numbers of Europeans out that way (it took eight months to get the First Fleet out there in 1787). Unlike in the Americas or New Zealand OTL, by the time transportation gets easier the population will have hit bottom and rebounded. Again unlike OTL the disease environment is far from safe for Europeans, and with the population recovery there isn't going to be a lot of unclaimed land for settlers to just squat on.

Also, unlike India, the population isn't accustomed (my apologies to Hindu members) to being ruled over by a bunch of quirky monotheists from outside the subcontinent: rule and possibly missionary activity on the part of alien faiths is likely to go badly (especially given that pilirism (?) is a faith able to go toe to toe with the world's main faiths on the conversion front). I'll note the first serious effort at a settlement colony in Islamic north Africa, in spite of it being right next door, did not take place until the 19th century [1], and we all know how _that_ went.

[1] As much as some members are pantingly eager to give us scenarios where North Africa is forcibly Christianized after 1500 (I name no names, but you know who you are. :evilsmile: )
 
Just a question, I know you've covered the Maori extensively, with the Pakanga in particular. But my question, which may have been covered, is if the Maori practice cannibalism as they did in OTL. Also how is cannibalism treated by societies in Aururia?
Well they got the Aururian crop package at , i think, the same time the Maori settled the islands. So Id guess, that with a better food supply, cannibalism might not have been needed as much? Tho I dont know much about how the Maori munched on other men..
 
Just a question, I know you've covered the Maori extensively, with the Pakanga in particular. But my question, which may have been covered, is if the Maori practice cannibalism as they did in OTL. Also how is cannibalism treated by societies in Aururia?

One of the Pakanga posts (the conquest of Mahratta in Post #93 I believe) involves the Maori conquering an Aururian town and then telling the defeated enemy warriors that their arms will be "smoked and eaten." I'd assumed it was a typo of some kind, but some other post clarifies it as ritual cannibalism.
 
I am curious was Aotearoa's ultimate population will end up being. 'Carrying capacity' is kind of a non-factor for (early) modern populations, as (at least until today...) the technology for improving yields usually outpaces population growth. Nonetheless NZ is not a particularly fertile place, and while not a small place does have plenty of mountains/hills etc. I do quite like the image of a densely populated and urbanised country that is extremely distant from pretty much anywhere else. Bit of a 'Chrysalids' vibe, but with a Polynesian spin.
 
I am curious was Aotearoa's ultimate population will end up being. 'Carrying capacity' is kind of a non-factor for (early) modern populations, as (at least until today...) the technology for improving yields usually outpaces population growth. Nonetheless NZ is not a particularly fertile place, and while not a small place does have plenty of mountains/hills etc. I do quite like the image of a densely populated and urbanised country that is extremely distant from pretty much anywhere else. Bit of a 'Chrysalids' vibe, but with a Polynesian spin.

With the South Seas being a lot more commercially active, a 20th- or 21st-century Aotearoa can probably import food from trade partners on Aururia. You can probably feed another few hundred thousand on imported Javanese rice.
 
I am curious was Aotearoa's ultimate population will end up being. 'Carrying capacity' is kind of a non-factor for (early) modern populations, as (at least until today...) the technology for improving yields usually outpaces population growth. Nonetheless NZ is not a particularly fertile place, and while not a small place does have plenty of mountains/hills etc. I do quite like the image of a densely populated and urbanised country that is extremely distant from pretty much anywhere else. Bit of a 'Chrysalids' vibe, but with a Polynesian spin.

It's a South Seas Japan. Japan is mostly mountains and infertile land, yet has had a very sizable population since early AD times. Only the late settlement of Aotearoa prevents it from being as densely populated as Japan.
 
Just a question, I know you've covered the Maori extensively, with the Pakanga in particular. But my question, which may have been covered, is if the Maori practice cannibalism as they did in OTL. Also how is cannibalism treated by societies in Aururia?
Well they got the Aururian crop package at , i think, the same time the Maori settled the islands. So Id guess, that with a better food supply, cannibalism might not have been needed as much? Tho I dont know much about how the Maori munched on other men..
One of the Pakanga posts (the conquest of Mahratta in Post #93 I believe) involves the Maori conquering an Aururian town and then telling the defeated enemy warriors that their arms will be "smoked and eaten." I'd assumed it was a typo of some kind, but some other post clarifies it as ritual cannibalism.
Cannibalism existed in Aotearoa as of 1618, although it was considerably rarer than the historical equivalent. It was largely a ritualised part of wafare where warriors would sometimes eat the hearts and arms of defeated warriors, to absorb their mana. It has continued to decline since then, although certainly practiced by some Pakanga, who tended to be the traditionalists anyway. The practice has been openly opposed by Christian missionaries, and more diplomatically opposed by Plirite missionaries who suggest that it's better to substitute the protection of a victorious ariki iwi (king) and their mana, rather than relying on consuming the mana of someone who couldn't win a battle.

I imagine that there would still be occasional instances of ritual cannibalism around by the 1720s, but very rare and mostly only conducted by the remaining followers of traditional Maori religion.

And fava beans: how well do they grow in Aururia?
Quite well; they're cultivated extensively in modern Australia. They're particularly widespread around the OTL Spencer Gulf, and I suspect that they have become part of the Aururian crop package in those regions.

I'd say India or SE Asia (continental, not Greater Indonesia) as models for European colonization: these are advanced, densely populated gunpowder states with a quite canny political tradition, and the area is simply a hellagone long way from Europe: the logistics before the 19th century are pretty poor for moving large numbers of Europeans out that way (it took eight months to get the First Fleet out there in 1787). Unlike in the Americas or New Zealand OTL, by the time transportation gets easier the population will have hit bottom and rebounded. Again unlike OTL the disease environment is far from safe for Europeans, and with the population recovery there isn't going to be a lot of unclaimed land for settlers to just squat on.
I think that different parts of agricultural Aururia are move vulnerable than others, and there won't be a uniform pattern. For instance, the Atjuntja in the west never really became a gunpowder state as they were under strong Dutch influence from early on, and have been a formal protectorate for a while now. *Tasmania is extremely vulnerable due to small population most of which lives close to the coast, although of course right now it's a question whether the Yadji try to intervene and how that plays out. Even Durigal has its problems. On the other hand, the interior regions of the Five Rivers and now the Dominion are very hard to project power into since it's a case of first getting to Aururia and then trying to work inland.

I would note though that by now the disease environment isn't that much worse for Europeans. The two worst diseases (Marnitja and blue-sleep) are by now naturalised in Europe anyway, so aren't any more hostile to Europeans who come colonising than those who stay at home. There are a couple of localised diseases which are bad (swamp-rash in much of the Five Rivers), but there's still significant parts of Aururia where the disease environment is no worse for Europeans than in Europe.

I finally caught up with the latest posts, and I have to say it: this TL is getting better and better. Keep it up, Jared!
Thanks. I think this sequence benefitted from being written in a sequence and having time to review and update before posting, rather than being posted one chapter at a time as written.

I am curious was Aotearoa's ultimate population will end up being. 'Carrying capacity' is kind of a non-factor for (early) modern populations, as (at least until today...) the technology for improving yields usually outpaces population growth. Nonetheless NZ is not a particularly fertile place, and while not a small place does have plenty of mountains/hills etc. I do quite like the image of a densely populated and urbanised country that is extremely distant from pretty much anywhere else. Bit of a 'Chrysalids' vibe, but with a Polynesian spin.
I'd estimate the carrying capacity of Aotearoa with existing technology and crops to be around 4-6 million. As you note the carrying capacity is largely irrelevant at the moment because the population has declined due to diseases and warfare, but that would be the theoretical maximum.

With the South Seas being a lot more commercially active, a 20th- or 21st-century Aotearoa can probably import food from trade partners on Aururia. You can probably feed another few hundred thousand on imported Javanese rice.
With 20th or 21st century technology a country can essentially import whatever amount of food it can afford, although Aururia or possibly *Indonesia would be the cheapest source.

It's a South Seas Japan. Japan is mostly mountains and infertile land, yet has had a very sizable population since early AD times. Only the late settlement of Aotearoa prevents it from being as densely populated as Japan.
Well, I'd also note that Japanese agriculture uses rice, which yields higher per acre than Aururian crops do. Aururian crops yield better per worker, but can't do as many crop rotations a year as rice can. So even in the best case scenario pre-modern Aotearoa wouldn't have an equivalent population to Japan (though certainly the Aotearoan population could still be higher than it is now).
 
And even if they imported it I think New Zealand is mostly too cold for rice: only parts of the North Island would be suitable.

New World potatoes might do better as a high-yield-per-acre crop: the Nuttana might bring 'em back from the Americas.
 
And even if they imported it I think New Zealand is mostly too cold for rice: only parts of the North Island would be suitable.
From what I can find out online, there's only been experimental growth of rice in NZ. It needs a lot of luck and timing to grow properly, and also needs some cold-adapted strains of rice (in OTL, from Hokkaido) which might not yet have been bred at this point ATL. Safe to assume that rice won't be grown in Aotearoa for a while yet, if at all.

New World potatoes might do better as a high-yield-per-acre crop: the Nuttana might bring 'em back from the Americas.
Potatoes were what led to a population boom in NZ in OTL, of course, so they should be feasible ITTL too. The Nuttana could get them from the Americas or some places in Asia (I think that potatoes were cultivated there by 1700 in OTL).
 
Top