Lands of Red and Gold, Act II

Okay, there are two questions that have occurred to me recently in regards to this timeline:
  1. How's Poland doing at this point in the timeline? I seem to recall them benefiting from how the Twenty Years' War turned out, but one of the quotes in a later post said that the 18th century can be summarized as "everybody hates Poland" which isn't that far off from OTL
  2. In the alt-21st Century, how are LGBT+ people seen in Plirism? Given the belief that a person's chosen name becomes their birth name I could see Plirite thought being used to make a strong argument in support of transgender people at least
 
Okay, there are two questions that have occurred to me recently in regards to this timeline:
  1. How's Poland doing at this point in the timeline? I seem to recall them benefiting from how the Twenty Years' War turned out, but one of the quotes in a later post said that the 18th century can be summarized as "everybody hates Poland" which isn't that far off from OTL
Poland didn't so much benefit from the Twenty Years' War as sat it out. They had some side-benefits in that Prussia-Brandenburg was strangled, but that didn't give them any direct territorial gain, with much going to Sweden and Prussia proper going to Courland.

Since then, well, everyone loves Poland - every single village of it. Sweden emerged stronger than it did in OTL, and freer from rivals. Russia is in the short-term more interested in taking territory off Poland than off Sweden. The Habsburgs have their own problems and are not in a position to give much help to Poland. The only power which is able to help them is Saxony, which is also stronger ITTL, but is also more vigorously Protestant. As such, it has sometimes helped Poland out of realpolitik but is not a reliable ally.

As such... Poland has shrunk.

  1. In the alt-21st Century, how are LGBT+ people seen in Plirism? Given the belief that a person's chosen name becomes their birth name I could see Plirite thought being used to make a strong argument in support of transgender people at least
Well, there's limited detail I can give without spoiling too much of the future of the timeline. I can say that Plirism is by no means united on this question, or on any question, really. In its first expansion around the world, Plirism acts as a syncretic religion which builds on traditional religions and attitudes, including to LGBT+, so, for example, Xhosa Plirites in *South Africa would retain their traditional attitudes, as would Kogung Plirites in *California, while those in Aururia would retain their traditional attitudes. (Without giving too much away, Kogung would be considered fairly LGB tolerant for the era, due to their pre-existing beliefs about mentorship).

After that, well, just as other religions such as Christianity and Buddhism developed their own modernist reinterpretations, it's safe to assume that something similar will emerge within Plirism. Such movements could indeed draw on some aspects of Plirite tradition, such as renaming and social harmony to be more accepting of transgender people, or indeed to anyone who fits outside of traditional social norms. As to how widespread that is within twenty-first century Plirism, that I can't say without giving too much else away.

On an unrelated note, this weekend's update has been postponed due to personal circumstances. The next chapter will be published the following weekend.
 
On a different note, Jared do you have any recommendations as to companies/businesses that can supply one or another native Australian food/spices? You've given plenty of great information throughout the last 11 or so years, including regarding your own cooking habits, but do you have any specific go-tos for getting hold of these ingredients?

IMO becoming adept, or even just basically competent, at using native ingredients in cooking would be a great way to always have an interesting dish to bring to events...
 
On a different note, Jared do you have any recommendations as to companies/businesses that can supply one or another native Australian food/spices? You've given plenty of great information throughout the last 11 or so years, including regarding your own cooking habits, but do you have any specific go-tos for getting hold of these ingredients?

IMO becoming adept, or even just basically competent, at using native ingredients in cooking would be a great way to always have an interesting dish to bring to events...

These days I buy most of them from the storefront; if you're ever in Sydney there's a spice store in the middle of the ground floor at Strand arcade (Gewürzhaus Herb & Spice Merchants) which has a wide variety of prepared spices and blends which include some bushfood spices, often mixed with others.

When I buy online, the main one I used to use is Outback Pride. They've since rebranded to bushlolly cafe (bushlolly.com), but don't look like they have an online store working at the moment. I'd keep an eye on them in the future in case they get working again, as they used to give good products.

For Tasmanian peppers, you can also use http://www.pepperberry.net.au/Home.php, which I have bought from before.
For Dorrigo peppers, I have bought them in the past from http://www.dorrigopepper.com/, but be warned that they have only a limited supply and will often be out of stock for a large part of the year until the next harvest.

Another store which looks promising but which I haven't bought from personally is http://www.bushfoodshop.com.au, which lists quite a range of bushfood products.
 
These days I buy most of them from the storefront; if you're ever in Sydney there's a spice store in the middle of the ground floor at Strand arcade (Gewürzhaus Herb & Spice Merchants) which has a wide variety of prepared spices and blends which include some bushfood spices, often mixed with others.

When I buy online, the main one I used to use is Outback Pride. They've since rebranded to bushlolly cafe (bushlolly.com), but don't look like they have an online store working at the moment. I'd keep an eye on them in the future in case they get working again, as they used to give good products.

For Tasmanian peppers, you can also use http://www.pepperberry.net.au/Home.php, which I have bought from before.
For Dorrigo peppers, I have bought them in the past from http://www.dorrigopepper.com/, but be warned that they have only a limited supply and will often be out of stock for a large part of the year until the next harvest.

Another store which looks promising but which I haven't bought from personally is http://www.bushfoodshop.com.au, which lists quite a range of bushfood products.

Thanks for this. Might have to look around/wait until I'm living back east. Hopefully Melbourne has some spice shops; I would not go to Sydney more than once a year, and that's usually by plane.
 
Thanks for this. Might have to look around/wait until I'm living back east. Hopefully Melbourne has some spice shops; I would not go to Sydney more than once a year, and that's usually by plane.
I'm sure there will be similar spice shops in Melbourne. Any decent speciality spice shop in the CBD should stock at least the basics.
 
Poland didn't so much benefit from the Twenty Years' War as sat it out. They had some side-benefits in that Prussia-Brandenburg was strangled, but that didn't give them any direct territorial gain, with much going to Sweden and Prussia proper going to Courland.

Since then, well, everyone loves Poland - every single village of it. Sweden emerged stronger than it did in OTL, and freer from rivals. Russia is in the short-term more interested in taking territory off Poland than off Sweden. The Habsburgs have their own problems and are not in a position to give much help to Poland. The only power which is able to help them is Saxony, which is also stronger ITTL, but is also more vigorously Protestant. As such, it has sometimes helped Poland out of realpolitik but is not a reliable ally.

As such... Poland has shrunk.

Is there a map for post 20 years war Europe? (If not, I'm willing to volunteer to take a crack at it, being fairly close to done with my current commissions)
 
Continuing with my weekend re-read, and noting a four year old reply to a question I asked about the inland Five Rivers kingdoms which stated that Gutjanal and Yigutji both wanted but were unable to get direct access to the Europeans, was there ever any talk in Gutjanal of accessing the sea via newly-independent Tiyanjara either through conquest or agreement? I don't actually know if there are any decent natural harbours in this region that roughly corresponds to Queensland other than Westernport of course, which is under Yadji control. I doubt that the Gippsland Lakes have been opened to the sea.

Nonetheless it's a short distance from the Gippsland coast to the Gutjanal border, and I would not be surprised if Tiyanjara would not mind an agreement with Gutjanal which saw both gain direct access to muskets and other goods... a Gutjanal conquest is probably unlikely though as both the Yadji and Tjibarri would be less than impressed. AFAIK this did not happen ITTL, of course, would I be overstating Gutjanal strength and understating the capacity of the post-plague Yadji to stop them?
 
As Jared has indicated, the Swedish seem much stronger than iOTL, having both broken Prussia, gained Silesia *and* getting through the war without ending up with the Danes as a particular Enemy. (Which still blows my mind)

Which leads to changes in any likely alt-Northern War. Russia will still be looking to grow, however in OTL, they actually stopped fighting the Polish for a while with concerns about the Swedish getting too strong. This concern will be even more significant iTTL. Also iTTL, the border between Poland and Swedish territories will be much greater than iOTL, giving the Swedes both more men (not sure the modern concerns about those men not being ethnicall Swedish apply) and more area to defend.
 
Is there a map for post 20 years war Europe? (If not, I'm willing to volunteer to take a crack at it, being fairly close to done with my current commissions)
That map was done some time ago (with minor tweaks that are in the works), but there is scope for some maps of Aururia in the Hunter's era if you have some time. I can drop you a PM if you're interested.

Do we still get the Europeans empiring everywhere? It's not a proper timeline without the British Empire :p
Imperialism in some form is probably inevitable, sadly. Whether it looks so much like OTL's version is harder to say. The Nuttana go in much more for soft imperial power than firm control (though they do have the latter too). For that matter, the European trading companies started as mostly just seizing small areas too, although they became notable examples of mission creep along the way.

Continuing with my weekend re-read, and noting a four year old reply to a question I asked about the inland Five Rivers kingdoms which stated that Gutjanal and Yigutji both wanted but were unable to get direct access to the Europeans, was there ever any talk in Gutjanal of accessing the sea via newly-independent Tiyanjara either through conquest or agreement? I don't actually know if there are any decent natural harbours in this region that roughly corresponds to Queensland other than Westernport of course, which is under Yadji control. I doubt that the Gippsland Lakes have been opened to the sea.

Nonetheless it's a short distance from the Gippsland coast to the Gutjanal border, and I would not be surprised if Tiyanjara would not mind an agreement with Gutjanal which saw both gain direct access to muskets and other goods... a Gutjanal conquest is probably unlikely though as both the Yadji and Tjibarri would be less than impressed. AFAIK this did not happen ITTL, of course, would I be overstating Gutjanal strength and understating the capacity of the post-plague Yadji to stop them?
Coincidentally, the next chapter includes a viewpoint section from a character in Gutjanal, which touches on the contact with Tiyanjara. I won't spoil things too much, but I'll note that although the distance between Gutjanal and Tiyanjara is not long, the geography is awful. This is some of the most mountainous areas of the continent, with not too many direct roads even today. The easier routes take them via territory which is controlled by Durigal.

In terms of ports, there is *Port Albert, although that's a strange place in itself, for reasons which I'll get around to covering at some point. The Western Port shoreline is divided between Durigal and Tiyanjara, but that's too dangerous to rely on. The Gippsland Lakes do actually open naturally to the sea, but the channel tends to silt up periodically and re-opens later, not always in the same place. It wouldn't be beyond European technology to fix the channel in place, although it would involve some effort.

As an aside, Yigutji has some trade with a European power, but again the logistics are against them. (This is also covered in one of the upcoming posts.) For all that it grates, it's far cheaper for Yigutji and Gutjanal both to import European goods via Tjibarr.

As Jared has indicated, the Swedish seem much stronger than iOTL, having both broken Prussia, gained Silesia *and* getting through the war without ending up with the Danes as a particular Enemy. (Which still blows my mind)
The Swedes lucked out during the 20 Years War, in that Denmark saw greater opportunity and less risk in picking up territory from the HRE than getting into a bruising fight with Sweden. That doesn't mean that the Danes and Swedes will stay friends. In fact, I'd consider a war or two as inevitable. However, Denmark also has no particular liking for Poland either, so won't be much help there.

Which leads to changes in any likely alt-Northern War. Russia will still be looking to grow, however in OTL, they actually stopped fighting the Polish for a while with concerns about the Swedish getting too strong. This concern will be even more significant iTTL. Also iTTL, the border between Poland and Swedish territories will be much greater than iOTL, giving the Swedes both more men (not sure the modern concerns about those men not being ethnicall Swedish apply) and more area to defend.
Sweden is certainly in an interesting position. War gets complex because Sweden is also involved in HRE politics in a significant way. But it's safe to say that regardless of who comes out better off between Russia and Sweden, Poland will be worse off. That doesn't necessarily mean partitioned off the map as happened in OTL (which was a rather contingent chain of events), but significant territorial losses are likely.

Just wondering if @Jared has received any fanart of the towns described (eg the White City, the pyramid in OTL Queensland)?
There's been some of various individuals and peoples from cultures, but not as much of the towns themselves.
 
Coincidentally, the next chapter includes a viewpoint section from a character in Gutjanal, which touches on the contact with Tiyanjara. I won't spoil things too much, but I'll note that although the distance between Gutjanal and Tiyanjara is not long, the geography is awful. This is some of the most mountainous areas of the continent, with not too many direct roads even today. The easier routes take them via territory which is controlled by Durigal.

In terms of ports, there is *Port Albert, although that's a strange place in itself, for reasons which I'll get around to covering at some point. The Western Port shoreline is divided between Durigal and Tiyanjara, but that's too dangerous to rely on. The Gippsland Lakes do actually open naturally to the sea, but the channel tends to silt up periodically and re-opens later, not always in the same place. It wouldn't be beyond European technology to fix the channel in place, although it would involve some effort.

As an aside, Yigutji has some trade with a European power, but again the logistics are against them. (This is also covered in one of the upcoming posts.) For all that it grates, it's far cheaper for Yigutji and Gutjanal both to import European goods via Tjibarr.

That makes sense, I'll look forward to the upcoming chapter for more details. I have found it slightly confusing several times in working out the exact locations of each of the Five Rivers/Durigal states in relation to each other due to the complete (and logical) divergence between the OTL state borders and the LoRaG nations. I've had to remind myself several times that both Tjibarr and Gutjanal include large parts of OTL Victoria, while Durigal controls large parts of South Australia. The different centres of gravity can also be a cause for pause - Durigal not being centred on Melbourne, for instance.

For a self-indulgent aside, is there anything interesting happening in Westernport/the Mornington Peninsula? I asked this some years ago, but perhaps the proximity to Cumberland/general superiority of Peninsula weather has attracted some European interest in the interim. Though I'm guessing it's still a land of small towns and farms, albeit with better than average rainfall.
 
The Swedes lucked out during the 20 Years War, in that Denmark saw greater opportunity and less risk in picking up territory from the HRE than getting into a bruising fight with Sweden. That doesn't mean that the Danes and Swedes will stay friends. In fact, I'd consider a war or two as inevitable. However, Denmark also has no particular liking for Poland either, so won't be much help there.


Sweden is certainly in an interesting position. War gets complex because Sweden is also involved in HRE politics in a significant way. But it's safe to say that regardless of who comes out better off between Russia and Sweden, Poland will be worse off. That doesn't necessarily mean partitioned off the map as happened in OTL (which was a rather contingent chain of events), but significant territorial losses are likely.
Denmark doesn't like Poland, but as far as I can tell, they don't *any* claims over each other's current lands, while there is no particular liking, they are about as useful to each other as any cross religious co-combatants could be at this point. Ideal for both is for the Swedish military to be in Sileasia fighting the Poles but the Danes managing to sink any resupplying fleets...

Yes and no, the area that the PLC is most likely to lose is in the Southeast, but I'm not sure it is completely guaranteed. The interactions between the Catholic and Orthodox churches may not go as bad at that point.

Still a couple of centuries from the Partition, with no Prussia and AH not being able to expand in that direction in the same way, I'm not sure how you would have a complete partition. And if Sweden gains as much of Poland as Prussia did iOTL, the ethnic Swedes would definitely be a minority in their own European empire in a way that I'm not sure anyone was iOTL.
 
That makes sense, I'll look forward to the upcoming chapter for more details. I have found it slightly confusing several times in working out the exact locations of each of the Five Rivers/Durigal states in relation to each other due to the complete (and logical) divergence between the OTL state borders and the LoRaG nations. I've had to remind myself several times that both Tjibarr and Gutjanal include large parts of OTL Victoria, while Durigal controls large parts of South Australia. The different centres of gravity can also be a cause for pause - Durigal not being centred on Melbourne, for instance.
It can be confusing when working with OTL geography. If it helps, think of it as what happens when cultures are founded based on peoples developing on the land rather than settling from the sea. The OTL centres of gravity of the various states are understandably derived from what made the most convenient port. ATL, no state except the Atjuntja is centred on a port because it was a port, and even with the Atjuntja, it was mostly coincidence that it happened to be a coastal culture which became the conquerors. (Their bigger advantage was being in a region suitable for the invention of iron working).

So the centres of gravity work more around natural geographic regions. The Murray basin works because of the natural transportation net which sees mountains as barriers and frontiers. Durigal is centred where it is because of the parts of Victoria south of the continental divide, western Victoria is much more productive farming land while Gippsland is much worse. So western Victoria had the higher population and became the centre of gravity of Durigal, with the edge of the decent agricultural land being more or less where Melbourne is. Further east, the population density was lower and it became a peripheral region.

For a self-indulgent aside, is there anything interesting happening in Westernport/the Mornington Peninsula? I asked this some years ago, but perhaps the proximity to Cumberland/general superiority of Peninsula weather has attracted some European interest in the interim. Though I'm guessing it's still a land of small towns and farms, albeit with better than average rainfall.
There have been some developments there, although these are better explored in a standalone post at a later date because it's peripheral to the story of the Hunter sequence.

I can't help but think that we've reached the point where a chronology would be super helpful.
Did you mean the entire timeline or just the Hunter sequence? A chronology of the Hunter sequence would be relatively quick to put together; writing one of the whole timeline would be a big task, and I mostly just use periodic summary posts to capture the history of the whole timeline.

Denmark doesn't like Poland, but as far as I can tell, they don't *any* claims over each other's current lands, while there is no particular liking, they are about as useful to each other as any cross religious co-combatants could be at this point. Ideal for both is for the Swedish military to be in Sileasia fighting the Poles but the Danes managing to sink any resupplying fleets...
Denmark and Poland could certainly cooperate in the right circumstances. I just wouldn't view it as guaranteed, particularly if the Swedish-Danish rivalry plays out in war first while Poland has Russian troubles, and if Denmark is then more concerned about a rematch.

Yes and no, the area that the PLC is most likely to lose is in the Southeast, but I'm not sure it is completely guaranteed. The interactions between the Catholic and Orthodox churches may not go as bad at that point.
If Sweden is doing well in a war against the PLC (not guaranteed, but certainly possible), it's possible that they will seek a peace deal which boosts Courland as a separate state by taking the Baltic coast of Lithuania and making it even harder for the PLC to project power into the Baltic.

Still a couple of centuries from the Partition, with no Prussia and AH not being able to expand in that direction in the same way, I'm not sure how you would have a complete partition. And if Sweden gains as much of Poland as Prussia did iOTL, the ethnic Swedes would definitely be a minority in their own European empire in a way that I'm not sure anyone was iOTL.
I wouldn't actually Sweden as being a power which would be involved in a partition of Poland. As an absolute maximum (and not something I think likely), they would seek to take the remaining Baltic coast of Poland. Their ambitions essentially are to make the Baltic a Swedish lake. If there is a partition of Poland (even a partial one, not a complete wiping off the map), it would require another power to emerge.
 
Top