Land of Turkey and Deer

I join the numbers of those who want to see this revived. Sounds like a promising TL, the Maya were always one of my favorite Amerindian groups
I think there's an error in one of your early posts though; you mention the eagle and jaguar warriors - but those were solely an Aztec military culture weren't they?
 
Hmm, I vaguely recall reading once that the Mayans had warrior societies much like the Aztecs, perhaps even warriors taking after the Jaguar, but you are probably right about the Eagle being a Mexican thing. I shall read into it more.

But I probably won't continue this. There are lists of reasons why. One of them being that I cannot stand my own writing, and also there is the fact I know little of anything dealing with Europe during this general time period. I'm sure the butterflies would affect them greatly. There is also the problems of a lot of work lately, personal matters, me being a lazy ass, and calendrics. I believe I mentioned this before. But as of late I may be able to pay more attention. I might start reading into it more, to learn more and plan, but again, don't expect anything. Sorry.

EDIT: COMPLETELY unrelated, but I'm sure any readers of this must be interested enough in Mayan history to perhaps find this amusing. I was just looking up Mayan warrior societies and got a link to this: http://mexico.novica.com/archaeological/mayan-replicas/ceramic-plate-maya-warriors-ritual/115031/

It's a plate with a picture the artist claims to be of a Mayan warrior. When I looked at it, however, I just burst out laughing. I recognize it! It's from a carving of King Pacal's (the Pacal the Great of Palenque) mother! I could be wrong but it looks like a picture I've seen of her handing him a helmet. This artist is hilariously dull.
 
But I probably won't continue this. There are lists of reasons why. One of them being that I cannot stand my own writing, and also there is the fact I know little of anything dealing with Europe during this general time period. I'm sure the butterflies would affect them greatly. There is also the problems of a lot of work lately, personal matters, me being a lazy ass, and calendrics. I believe I mentioned this before. But as of late I may be able to pay more attention. I might start reading into it more, to learn more and plan, but again, don't expect anything. Sorry.

1) Your writing is great. Hey, I know, everyone's worst critic is themselves. But seriously, the writing is fine.

2) You could always put up "butterfly nets" allowing Europe to go as OTL or ignore it completely and focus on Mayan developments. If Great Old One of AH Jared can get away with Butterfly nets on Lands of Red and Gold then I think they're kosher as long as they're lampshaded.

3) Time: I fully understand. GOOD LORD I fully understand. Full time job, shitty commute, homeowner, and best/worst of all I'm a new father.

4) I guess my point is that I understand if you can't do this anymore. I miss this TL, but best of luck. It's a great TL and I hope you can get back to it some day. :)
 
Hoo-boy, time for epic thread necromancy. Although I think it justified here as I plan an update. Like right now. Writing's probably gonna be even worse than usual, the last thing I wrote in length that I remember pretty much was the last update here, which was a year ago. I am very rusty to say the least. So yeah. And here also is the start of the Spanish Conquest, and the end of the fun of writing things that concern the Mayans alone.

Oh, and in response to #2, Mr Khan, not sure I can do that concerning the importance these developments have on Europe. When they discovered Australia, very little in Europe changed. But the Americas were the first new world, and the Mayans are the first new civilization they contacted. And the gold and wealth they plundered was very important in the developments of Europe. IIRC it payed for the Spanish Armada. Not an expert on that though. So correct me if I get anything wrong, please. I beg you. Anyhow, on to the update after a more than a year's hiatus filled with doubt and the fear I would never update this again! Forward, ho!

The Meeting of Two Worlds

During the Gregorian year of 1500 AD, the katun 2 Ahau began. A Chilam from an unknown city spoke this prophecy concerning it: "For half of the katun there will be food, for half some misfortunes. This katun brings the end of the word of god. It is a time of uniting for a cause." [1]

In the Year of Our Lord, 1502, on May the 12th, the infamous Christopher Columbus debarked from Cádiz, Spain on his fourth and final voyage. The expedition however was to have terrible luck. However, on 12 Etz'nab 6 Pop (July 30th), his ships reached the coast of a land he called Honduras. There it was he encountered a large Mayan trading canoe. Canopied and carrying over a dozen people, it contained many copper tools, weapons, and jewelry, clubs edged with obsidian, bright pottery, colored cotton fabrics, in addition to much more paraphernalia. The meeting however was not especially noted by the Spanish and only given the briefest mention in the journals, despite the enigma surrounding the identity of these traders. Nobody of that expedition took much note of it.

Among the Maya, it was regarded as a bigger mystery. However, among most circles it was regarded as a fabrication. The traders did not come with any objects belonging to the strange people in the strange, large, winged vessel they described. Just as among the Spanish, the incident was regarded with little notice by the Mayans.

However, 9 years after the first meeting of two worlds something more important was stirring. The governor Diego de Nicuesa had gone to Santa María la Antigua del Darién, in modern Panama, and gotten in a dispute with Vasco Núñez de Balboa. Nicuesa sent a Captain Valdivia, 15 men, and two women, in a caravel to San Domingo to give an account to the governor and the admiral, in addition to 20,000 ducats for the king. However, they ran aground of the shoals of Viboras and the crew had to abandon ship in a boat with no sails, no provisions, and poor oars and they were adrift for 13 days. 8 of them had died from this before the boat drifted to the eastern shore of Uluumil Kutz, on the island of Cozumel.

The lord who became responsible for the captives was one Xamanzaná. His gut instinct was to have the captives slaughtered, but wisdom prevailed and he kept half of them as slaves, including both of the women, and sent the other five en route to Dzibanche. [2] These included Captain Valdivia, a priest named Geronimo de Aguilar, and a veteran soldier named Gonzalo Guerrero. Most of the journey was by canoe down the coast. Two of the Spanish sailors taken prisoner were lost, however, when their canoe was capsized on the tumultuous passage between Cozumel and the mainland. It is said their escape attempt was what caused it, but in any case they drowned and only Valdivia, Aguilar, and Guerrero went on to Dzibanche.

Eventually the part reached the port town of Chaktemal, or Chetumal as the the Spanish called it. The prisoners were awed by the sight of more people and buildings than any place they had known in the New World and were awed by the bustling life on the busy streets of a major Mayan port. However, their awe turned to outright disbelief when the group was taken down the sacbe to the city of Dzibanche. There they saw things they never dreamed they'd see in any world, Old or New.

The first thing they saw over the horizon were what at first they thought were strangely colored mountains. As they neared the city it became clear that they were massive pyramidal towers garishly painted in red, blue, green, and a vast array of other colors. [3] There were palaces, exotic plants and animals, and riches to be seen in every part of the city center. The people themselves seemed extremely exotic and even a little frightening to Spanish eyes. Tied to a long wooden yoke, they were eventually dragged before the great lord of the city, Kaloomte K'in H'alhul.

To K'in H'alhul's eyes, these people seemed extremely exotic and even a little frightening. Extremely tall, at least compared to the average Mayan, covered completely in baggy clothes with skin as pale as death and thick hair covering their faces and much of their body. And above all, they stank right down to Xibalba. It was one thing to accumulate dirt and grime from a journey down the coast of Yucatan, but the stench and grime made all in the presence of the Spaniards think that they must never have taken a bath in their lives.

Nevertheless, the lord of Dzibanche was determined to learn all he could from such people. After finding quarters to house their guests in, they had them bathed, their old clothes burned and given new ones, and had them fed as well, quite generously. The most gifted linguists he could find, especially traders, were set to learning all they could of the language of the visitors. But for the most part these people were a strange, often humorous, distraction what seemed more important matters to K'in H'alhul, matters of the state of the League and Dzibanche, matters of the stars and of rituals. In Spain all these men were considered lost to the sea and it would be still more years before the next Spanish explorer set eyes on Uluumil Kutz Yetel Ceh.
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Yes, I know it was short, I'll get to the expedition of Francisco Hernandez de Cordoba ASAP, at least I hope. I'm expecting Kingdom of Heaven (director's cut) from Netflix tomorrow and will probably spend all day watching it. If you haven't seen it, watch it. The normal movie is okay, the director's cut is glorious and an easy top ten. Anyhow, onto footnotes...

[1] If my sources are right this is the actual prophecy for katun 2 Ahau, which began in that year. I added it in here because it is actually eerily accurate to what I had planned. Very accurate. Even more bizarre, the katun that begins in 2012 is also 2 Ahau. According the the Mayans, since time is cyclical what happened in one katun applies to it when it appears again...

[2] IOTL Captain Valdivia and several other were immediately sacrificed. Given that Mexican influence is less TTL and the northern Mayans are all part of the same league, it would seem smarter for Xamanzaná to send some as tribute to his bosses in Dzibanche.

[3] As previously stated, TTL after the Kan rulers moved to Dzibanche, they reconstructed the temple complexes under construction at El Mirador there, partially by using some of El Mirador as a quarry. The tallest is 70m high, not including the actual temple at the top. In comparison the Templo Mayor in Tenochtitlan was 60m. In any case, just as Greek temples were painted more brightly and gaudily than is commonly believed, the Mayan pyramids were also a vast array of colors, mostly red. In addition, it seems they also had some skill in architectural acoustics. At one pyramid in Chichen Itza, a clapping sounds reverberates through the steps to create a sound eerily similar to the call of a quetzal bird. Also, there's the whole shadows-make-a-serpent-on-the-equinox thing.
 
To K'in H'alhul's eyes, these people seemed extremely exotic and even a little frightening. Extremely tall, at least compared to the average Mayan, covered completely in baggy clothes with skin as pale as death and thick hair covering their faces and much of their body. And above all, they stank right down to Xibalba. It was one thing to accumulate dirt and grime from a journey down the coast of Yucatan, but the stench and grime made all in the presence of the Spaniards think that they must never have taken a bath in their lives.
Spaniards who have been out sailing and exposed to the elements? they'll be darker than than the Mayan aristocracy, no?

Early Chinese (or was it japanese) reports talked about Europeans as being dark-skinned, unlike themselves, who were white. (Talk about reversing stereotypes).

How short were the Mayans? Were Spaniards particularly tall? It seems odd to think of 16th century Spaniards as 'tall' even in relation to the locals...

Stench, well there'd you'd be right. Europeans have a distinct body odour that the Mayans would have to smell to believe!
 
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Spaniards who have been out sailing and exposed to the elements? they'll be darker than than the Mayan aristocracy, no?

Early Chinese (or was it japanese) reports talked about Europeans as being dark-skinned, unlike themselves, who were white. (Talk about reversing stereotypes).

How short were the Mayans? Were Spaniards particularly tall? It seems odd to think of 16th century Spaniards as 'tall' even in relation to the locals...

Stench, well there'd you'd be right. Europeans have a distinct body odour that the Mayans would have to smell to believe!
Eh... Mayas really are darker. Even more so than other Indians in the area, and especially the Chinese. And Mayans were (and are) really short. Not sure about men, but women at that time averaged around 4'8''. I'd imagine the average height for Spanish men of the time was something like 5'6'' at least.
 
Eh... Mayas really are darker. Even more so than other Indians in the area, and especially the Chinese. And Mayans were (and are) really short. Not sure about men, but women at that time averaged around 4'8''. I'd imagine the average height for Spanish men of the time was something like 5'6'' at least.
Ah. Thank you
 
I just realized I made a strange oversight when I began this that I should have taken the time to look up. According to one of my favorite sources the original name of the city of Kaminaljuyu, a city mentioned in the first post and ITTL survives longer, was apparently Tulam Tzu. I'm not entirely sure, however, but it sounds better than Kaminaljuyu, which is Quiche for "Hills of the Dead". Yeah, not very pleasant. So I suppose I should go back and change it once I get confirmation.

EDIT: No confirmation, but I decided to go ahead anyway since I'm no stranger to taking possible liberties for this, but then I just found out I can't edit posts made over a year ago. Damn. Well, for the sake of the future I hope y'all will remember Tulam Tzu is Kaminaljuyu, the throne of the Maya Pacific Coast and overlord of the highland tribes.
 
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Okay, technically a double-post, but it doesn't matter considering I need to get in the habit of writing this and nobody is commenting any time soon. So here goes the expedition of Francisco Hernández de Córdoba. Granted, this won't be too dissimilar from OTL, but I can't find any reason to change the events of his voyage drastically at all, although I may tweak his motives for it.

The Spanish Discovery of El Gran Cairo

In the year 1517, 6 years after the disappearance of Diego de Nicuesa and his fleet, over a hundred more Spaniards were preparing for a new foray into the unexplored parts of the New World. Discontent with life in Tierra Firme [1], 110 people such as the illustrious Bernal Díaz del Castillo left Darien to Cuba, to petition Diego Velázquez for slaves to work in their mines. They paired up with the hidalgo Francisco Hernández de Córdoba, and with the permission of the governor they commissioned an expedition officially to go and explore new lands and gain glory. Although some doubt this "noble" calling was truth, there is some credence behind the idea given that as the pilot of the expedition they hired the famous Antón de Alaminos, an expert pilot and veteran of the voyages of Columbus. On 11.14.16.16.18, 5 Etz'nab 1 Zac (February 8th, 1517), Hernandez and over a hundred men left Havana in two warships and a brigantine.

Before they had left, Velázquez had requested them to go south, for there had been sightings of large canoes carrying dozens each, similar to what Columbus had seen 15 years prior. With this guideline, Hernandez had Alaminos turned the lead ship south west, straight for Yucatec shores. After passing Cuban shores and heading into the open ocean, the ships ran into rough seas and for weeks were lost at open seas. But before they lost hope they sighted land, and as they approached they saw the first sign of solidly built buildings and settlements. As any non-Christian civilization invoked Muslims to the Spanish, they called this place "El Gran Cairo" and referred to the tall temples as "mezquitas". In reality, the place they had found was but a simple town to the Maya, a town they called Ekab.

It was on 11.14.17.0.2, 3 Ik 5 Ceh (March 4th, 1517) that the batab of Ekab encountered the Spanish by a cape. To the three large vessels that bore strange wings, he sent ten canoes, that the Spanish called pirogues (and as Diaz noted, could carry up to 40 men). The sailors made signs of peace, and 30 Mayans including the batab himself boarded their flagship and looked around. The Spanish were impressed by their appearance, the Cubans were typically more or less naked whereas the Mayans covered up more and wore cotton shirts like jackets as well. When asked what this cape was, the Mayans replied "Cotoch", meaning "our houses, our homeland". From then on the cape was known as Cape Cotoche. [2] They left, saying the next morning they would come with more pirogues to bring the Spanish ashore.

The Mayans returned the next morning as promised, to transfer the Spanish to land. But they saw a large throng gathering on the shore and realized the landing might be dangerous. Nevertheless, they went on with it, and as a precaution brought fifteen crossbows and ten muskets. Their suspicions were true. The batab had prepared an ambush. They were assailed by spears and slings and arrows. The Spanish were frightened by the sudden attack by more numerous natives, but the power of their steel blades and the loud, fire-spitting guns that made a thunderclap as they rent flesh, scared off the attackers long enough for the Spanish to make their way back to the ships. During this fight, a priest had made his way to one of the stepped mezquitas and plundered some of its gold and jewels. But at the same time, two of the Spanish had died as well.

Most of the crew took it for granted that the natives would "be savage" and attack without warning, but some of the officers among them wondered by such a seemingly civilized people would attack without warning or reason. But what they did not know, what they could not know, was that after the shipwrecked crew of Captain Valdivia has made shore and been enslaved, some among them were carrying a disease that would change the face of a continent. It spread without warning among many of the towns and killed hundreds, and thousands. There were no signs at first, and then the victim would suffer horribly for a few days before succumbing to death. There was no cure, no remedy, no way to even comfort or numb the pain of the ailing. The Mayans called it mayacimil, the easy death. The Spanish called it smallpox.

When it first spread, Xamanzaná, the captor of the Spanish, had sent word to all the towns he could. Most responded by burning copal incense, and then started sacrificing birds, and jaguars, and even slaves. In Dzibanche, Holy Lord K'in H'alhul had his physicians and scientists keep track of the disease. They eventually came to the conclusion that it spread by contact. After deliberation, the Holy Lord of Dzibanche realized he had to make the hardest decision. He ordered that any villages showing signs of the mayacimil be quarantined, the road cut to show travelers that they proceed at their own peril. In Dzibanche, anyone that showed symptoms would be put to death, to ease their own suffering, and burned away from everyone else to ease the lives of all others. Stress was put on the order not to touch the infected. Despite all these advanced measures, it still spread virulently. H'alhul might have slowed it some, however, and although many considered him to be harsh, history vindicated him in the years to come.

Away from the Maya heartlands, to the north, Francisco Hernández de Córdoba continued his voyage, making a path westward along the coast, wary of any fights after the incident at Cape Cotoch. They passed a massive, bustling port town much larger by several degrees than Ekab, but went past it with the fear that a landing there would be much worse than at Cotoch. But their water supplies were dwindling, so they made shore by the village of Canpech [3]. As they got more water there, from the well-built wells the natives called chultunes, they heard the Indians repeat a word that sounded eerily familiar to them: "Castilian". The Spanish were greatly troubled by this, by how the natives could possibly know their word for people of the land from which most of them hailed. In truth, they were repeated what they'd heard from the castaways, who will be heard from later.

They left Canpech, and after a few days sailed into a violent storm that sent them south, near Chakanputun, or Champoton as the Spanish called it. They stopped to gather water there, for they were near empty again, but made a great mistake in doing so. The lord there was a fearsome man named Mocħ Couoh. He gathered his captains, and his holcanes, and summoned his militias who armed themselves from the town armories, painted red and black symbols on themselves, and carrying the bright, colorful banners of war they silently made their way to the Spanish. They were spotted around nightfall, as they made no pretense at stealth, and confused the Spanish as to their intentions. The Spanish became fearful, and argued. Some wanted to leave immediately, but others argued that doing so would get them attacked immediately. Others opted for attacking at night, but as they argued dawn broke and the hopelessness of the Spaniards' situation dawned upon them as well. They numbered a little over a hundred. The host of the province of Chakanputun numbered into the thousands.

The Mayan host, plumed and feathered banners fluttering in the wind, made great noise with deep drums and whistles and shouts, and more from the villages joined the army as they organized themselves into squadrons and surrounded the Spanish. When they attacked, it was with a shower of arrows and rocks from slings. And worst of all were the darts from the spearthrower, or the Jatz'om "white heat" as the Maya called it. Even steel armor was penetrated by those, and the slings could stun a helmeted man if hit on the head. After the first great hail that laid low many of the Spanish force, they closed in with spears, knives, clubs, axes, and most dangerously of all, the obsidian swords that cleaved flesh like butter. The superior steel of the Spanish only succeeded in pushing them back so they maintained their distance, and they simply went back to hailing them with projectiles of every kind. Soon a shout rose among the Mayans, "Halach Uinic, halach uinic!" as they pointed as Captain Francisco Hernández. Hernández was hit by ten arrows, and Bernal Díaz by three. The Spanish formed a phalanx and made a desperate fallback to the ships, leaving behind the precious water and two men who were taken prisoner.

Even as they fell back to the boats Mocħ Couoh did not try to spare any. His men did their best to capsize the boats as they retreated to the ships, and many Spanish men fell into the water. Half were hanging on desperately to the boats, but in the end the ship with the shallowest draft rescued them. But it was at great cost. Not only was the precious water lost, so were fifty men killed on the beaches of Champotón. Two had been taken prisoner and killed shortly after. And all the rest save one were wounded or injured in some way. Five more would die of their injuries. The extreme thirst that had gripped the men thereafter made them suffer even moreso. They named the place they retreated from La Costa de Mala Pelea, The Coast of the Bad Fight. After a tortuous journey home, they made it back to Havana with only two boats, which had deteriorated and were taking on water. Four more had died by then. And shortly after Captain Francisco Hernández de Córdoba made it back to Cuba, he died as well, but not before he passed on the gold the priest had recovered from Ekab, and told the people of a land filled with riches.

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[1] Tierra Firme is what the Spanish called Panama. I like the name, not sure if it'll stick, though.

[2] They also asked the name of the whole land. The answer is heavily disputed. In the OP I went with the "Ci-u-than" "I don't understand you" idea because it was more interesting and felt better in the narrative, but there is much doubt on that to say the least. Partially because it was likely that was a propaganda slight against someone who supposedly misinterpreted that, and possibly because there is no clear cognate that matches that. One theory is that they said the Chontal Mayan word "Yokatan", meaning language or where the language is spoken.

[3] Canpech is OTL Campeche, a very important place. They bustling port town they passed was Chunchucmil, which was long abandoned by this time OTL, yet due to the no-Collapse deal here still exists as a port for the large and important city of Uxmal, much as Chetumal does for Dzibanche, yet Chunchucmil is much larger than Chetumal.


Whew, that was much longer than expected. And it didn't diverge much from OTL either. Huh. In any case, I laughed at myself when I almost made the mistake of typing Mocħ Couoh's name as Moch Covoh, which is how Diego del Landa tells it. Good thing I found a FAMSI dictionary that corrected me. If you want anything on Mayans, FAMSI is the most official place I'd say. If you are interested, Mocħ Couoh translates as Tarantula Fingers. Appropriate name, I'm sure he was quite the pleasant person... If you are interested in other names, FAMSI gives Hunac Ceel as meaning Infinitely Cold, which I didn't know before and also seems rather appropriate given his infamous reputation for deviousness.

So, there are two chapters now done of a little of introducing the Spaniards and largely following OTL. Next update I hope will be much more interesting. For those not well-versed in Mesoamerican history, it will contain the exploits of a certain personage known by most people today as Cortez.
 
Or 'Indians' ;) :p
Well, that was how it went OTL. Doesn't help that IIRC India was ruled by Muslims at the time...

In any case, I could use some help. I'm not sure what direction to take the whole Cortez thing in. By that, I mean it literally, I don't know what direction he is going to go in. OTL he was ordered to explore to coast of Mexico before the mission was cancelled and he went ahead anyway, but there is more evidence of wealth and riches in Yucatan TTL. Heh, I remember I had a silly idea a while back that Cortez would hear about the whole myth about the arrival of the gods occurring on the date he came, and he'd try to pass himself off as one. Then the Mayas would subject him to the Interrogation of the Lords, with predictable results. But it's silly, and I can't think of a plausible way to do that ITTL. In any case, my second question would be: does anybody here know how to type in the accents manually? Kinda annoying to have to copy and paste names and without the accents it looks wrong.
 
I'm interested, and though I don't know this period of history very well, I do like the narrative so far.

As for the accents, on Windows you can use the ALT codes(hold down alt and type on the numpad):
ALT+0225: á
ALT+0233: é
ALT+0237: í
ALT+0243: ó
ALT+0250: ú

Those are the only ones I know off the top of my head. Hope it helps.
 
I'm interested, and though I don't know this period of history very well, I do like the narrative so far.

As for the accents, on Windows you can use the ALT codes(hold down alt and type on the numpad):
ALT+0225: á
ALT+0233: é
ALT+0237: í
ALT+0243: ó
ALT+0250: ú

Those are the only ones I know off the top of my head. Hope it helps.
Thanks, that really does help. No more copying and pasting every single name with an accent. :p In any case, I did a lot of thinking and realized I really should have Cortez go for Yucatan. Malinche has been butterflied out of here TTL, and it'd be a bit difficult to find other Nahuatl to Mayan translators that would be willing to help Cortez. So now I just need to get into planning and thinking about what Cortez would do after he picks up some certain Castilian buddies in Cozumel...
 
Can't you just use that button next to 'Enter'? That, combined with e or a or whatever, creates é or á, or whatever you want. Although it only works for vocals? Is that the word? Anyway, I mean the letters e, a, o, i, and u.
 
Can't you just use that button next to 'Enter'? That, combined with e or a or whatever, creates é or á, or whatever you want. Although it only works for vocals? Is that the word? Anyway, I mean the letters e, a, o, i, and u.
Assuming you're using a modern version of Windows (boo, hiss), choose 'US International keyboard' instead of US. Then '+a gives you acute a á (similarly for all vowels, and for ` (grave), ^(circumflex), " (diaresis/umlaut);
 
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