Land of Turkey and Deer

Well, I've been planning on making a TL about a surviving Mayan civilization since I joined, in fact it was my sole reason for joining, and I've decided I've put it off far too long. It's been a long journey formulating the research that'll go into this, a journey which is far from over. I've had lots of trouble with details and political-religious aspects of the Mayan culture, so at first I might just have to start with the background and POD, a set up to what I hope amounts to a successful TL. Now, any constructive criticism or feedback would be highly appreciated, especially when we get to the point where the butterflies will start affecting the Spanish and everyone else as well. After all, this is my first actual timeline. I might need a load of help if it gets too bad. Until then, please enjoy!

The POD, for those who are wondering, is actually so far back that those without a detailed knowledge of Mayan history may not know how it could help them in the 1500's. Admittedly, that might mean everyone but me 'cause I'm a dork, but ah well. In the Late Preclassic era, the site of El Mirador (the largest Maya city in history) is abandoned earlier and the Mayans apply the lessons from that city's fall earlier rather than repeat the same mistakes in the Classic era that resulted in the great Collapse that everyone talks about.

To be honest, due to the spottiness of Mayan history (much is still unconfirmed or uncertain, partially due to burning books, partially due to looters destroying everything to sell stuff on the black market, I've made up details not known officially and filled in some spots.

Oh, and apologies to Jared if he feels I am copying his title, I only felt it appropriate to name a Maya-TL after what they call their own land. And I must also thank this webpage, for the graphic calendar converter I shall make great use of. Why must I use it, you ask? Well why not?

Land of Turkey and Deer: How the Mayans survived the Great Lament

When the Spanish conquistadores landed on the shores of the New World, they asked the natives what they called their land. They responded, "Ci u than" or, "I don't understand what you're saying." The Spanish, over time, turned this into Yucatan, and so we called it too. The Maya also says his land is Yucatan in Spanish, but in his own tongue, it is Uluumil Cutz Yetel Ceh, the Land of Turkey and Deer.

The year 8.5.0.0.1, on the day of 13 Imix 14 Kankin (April 1, 140 AD), was a day of great sorrow for the people of Oxte'tun [1], it was the day the city had been officially declared dead. It was a most auspicious day to declare the death of the site and the moving of the dynasty to the northeast, to the city of Dzibanche. It was the end of a cycle, the cycle which Oxte'tun, "The God's Place of Birth", had been the seat of. Being the seat of a cycle meant great prestige, in addition to a sign of the strength and holiness of a city. But Oxte'tun had been falling apart for a while. The two great pyramid complexes largest in the known world, were not yet completed but construction had ceased long before as they were simply running out of resources. The soil had also been eroding and they were suffering famine. The death god stalked the corn, and many people had entered the water [2]. Of course it had all been prophesied be the Chilanes, soothsayers, but it still hurt the people to see their city come to this. So, when the rituals for the end of the seating of the cycle started, with the symbolic destruction of the city and its road, the people actually started following the ruling Kan dynasty uproad to Dzibanche.

To the south, as the Kan kingdom fell apart, their rival Kaminaljuyu, the great city of the south, was very much relieved. They had been weaker than their rivals, but the strength of the Kan had actually caused their own defeat. Now the only serious rivals of Kaminaljuyu were the highland Maya, who were very alien to them, and spoke unintelligibly. Aside from them, there were also the small cities to the east, around the Ulua rivers, chief of which was Xuxpi. The kingdom of Mutul, a minor power in Oxte'tun's time, was making great waves as it grew to new heights, making alliances to the east and west, especially with the kingdoms along the Usamacinta River.

Dzibanche also seemed predetermined for greatness. It was on a great trade network, very close to the sea and the port of Chetumal, and there was an abundance of resources nearby. They made much trade from the nearby honey orchards and cotton and cacao plantations. It was even further from the rising power of Mutul or Kaminaljuyu than were Calakmul or Oxte'tun. The Kan dynasty was keen on making Dzibanche more glorious and sacred even than Oxte'tun. They inaugurated the katun with the blood of the nobles from the south, their heads rolling down the steps of the rising pyramids to the sound of trumpets and drums. Much labor was made out of the defeated soldiers of the city of Oxhuitza and the Kantu kingdom, their backs bearing great quantities of limestone to build recreations of the great pyramids of Oxte'tun.

The growing power of Mutul had to be checked, however. Dominated a major crossroads, they were fabulously rich, at least as much as Dzibanche was, and about as large and populous too. Since the day 8.17.1.4.13, 12 Ben 16 Mac (14 January, 378 AD) Mutul had been ruled by a dynasty of Toltec lineage, set up on that date by one Siyah K'ak', a general of Atlatl Cauac, the king of the mighty Mexican city of Teotihuacan. Ever since he set his son up as the king of Mutul, they had started hegemonical empire by making allies or vassals out of Xuxpi, Lakam Ha, and numerous smaller cities. Dzibanche responded by setting up Oxhuitza as a vassal, along with Saal and Pa' Chan, chief city of the Usamacinta River with many vassals of its own. Very soon the two powers began proxy wars against one another, with neither side gaining a clear advantage. Instead of calling themselves simply Kuhul Ahau, holy lord, the rulers of Mutul and Dzibanche each adopted the title of Kaloomte, or high king, with the lord of Mutul referring to himself as the High King of the West, proud of his Toltec lineage.

Dzibanche seized upon this, gathering up much support against those they called 'the foreign intruders', and they made alliances with many cities closer to Mutul itself, surrounding it slowly but surely. Eventually, Mutul set up a city to the south, meant basically as a glorified watch-post near two springs [3] that was given the same name as the capital, and the king's 4-year-old brother, Balaj Chan K’awiil, was set up as the leader of that city. Twenty years later, he realized what a vulnerable position he was in when Yuknoom Che'en II "the Great" of Dzibanche sacked his city and reinstated Balaj as a vassal of their dynasty. He served as a loyal ally of the Kan, even aiding in a defeat of Mutul that ended in the sacking of that great city. Rivers of blood flowed through the streets, and a mountain of skulls was stacked up. But Mutul rose again. Dzibanche's total victory was to be postponed. It was during this stalemate when the inner system of the Kan kingdom began to crack.

----------

That's all I got for now, expect updates as I get more organized. Any thoughts on what I got? Oh, and here are links to a nice looking (although clustered) map of Maya cities and a map of some trade routes. And just in case, here is another map, more detailed this time.
-----------
Footnotes and name translations:

[1] OTL El Mirador, as previously stated it was the largest Mayan city ever, with the biggest monuments to boot. It fell for possibly the same reasons the later cities of the Classic era did.

[2] Maya euphemism for death, thought it'd be fun to add.

[3] This referring to Dos Pilas, a famous site that was very important in the Tikal/Calakmul wars. Easy read on its history at wikipedia.

Oxte'tun=El Mirador. The Maya name meant Birthplace of God's, while the Spanish means the lookout IIRC.
Mutul=Tikal. The old name meant, oddly, "hair bundle". Tikal only meant "at the waterhole", a name obviously given after it was abandoned.
Xuxpi=Copan. Meant "Corner bundle".
Oxhuitza=Caracol. Original name meant "place of three hills". Capital of the Kantu kingdom.
Pa' Chan=Yaxchilan.
Saal=Naranjo.
Lakam Ha=Palenque. Capital of the kingdom of B'aakal.
Kan=snake. Kan was the name of a dynasty that originated in El Mirador, moved its seat to Dzibanche, and then to (in OTL) Calakmul. Calakmul and Tikal were the superpowers of the Yucatan that were engaged in a prolonged conflict that brought about much destruction and was a major reason for the Collapse.
 
Last edited:
Looks good so far (well, not that there's much yet!). The two major sections of it don't flow together all that well (from Oxte'tun to Dzibanche), but I'm sure you'll iron that out over time. You should probably put parenthetical comments and notes in a separate section at the bottom (like Jared). It makes the text flow better.
 
Ah, good advice right there. Thought it looked rather clunky myself. I'll go ahead and clean it up right now. One of the problems might be the fact that I keep trying to give it the same tone as the Books of Chilam Balam and the Mayan inscriptions from monuments. Kinda sounds a bit weird, but I love to type that way. And I should probably shove Mr. Tuucha Che's plotting and whatnot to the next chapter as soon as I get more filler in there.
 
Last edited:
Interesting. I've always like the Mayas as a pre-columbian civilization. In order to have them survive takes a little more work than the incas or the aztecs becuase they were hundreds of little statelets, also I like city-states in history like the Greeks...
 
Well, just as the Greeks sometimes gathered into Leagues, so too did the Maya, except I'm sure they did more often. But thanks! I'm far too pessimistic about how many people care about Mayans here, nice to see that I'm wrong, seriously! As to how they survive, well I'll get to the specifics once I'm done with the societal changes, the developments in the Southern then the Northern Lowlands, etc, but basically what they need to survive the Spanish onslaught and what they bring (called ITTL by the Maya "the Great Lament") they'll need a strong and harsh king, one who's not afraid to be cruel to do what it takes, and it'll take a lot. But certainly it'll be harder for the Spanish than were the Aztecs, as the Mayans are going to be both more unified and less unified than they were. Hard to explain, but still...
 
Now, this is wonderful! The writing really draws you into the setting and lets you 'see' what's going on. The only (minor) quibble I have with it is the spelling and grammar, but with your location as 'the Spanglish Empire' I'm going to guess you're a non-native speaker? If you want, I could point out where the errors are (at least, the ones I can see). Overall though, really excellent. Can't wait to see where this is going!
 
Oh, this is kinda embarrassing. I actually am a native English speaker. Ah well, I'll just chalk it up to being a Southern redneck. Glad you still like the writing. Some chapters are going to be more character-driven, like the next, which might either give you a much better insight on Mayan culture or just confuse the hell out of everyone.
 
Oh, this is kinda embarrassing. I actually am a native English speaker. Ah well, I'll just chalk it up to being a Southern redneck. Glad you still like the writing. Some chapters are going to be more character-driven, like the next, which might either give you a much better insight on Mayan culture or just confuse the hell out of everyone.
Ah, and now I'm the one who feels embarrassed :eek: Don't feel bad, actually the mistakes are quite minor (as I said): people who are native tend to screw up in a more spectacular manner than non-natives.
 
I am realizing just now I am not as organized as I thought. Most of the above was off the top of my head and put down there so I could say I actually did it instead of just talking about it. But I will try to have more up by this afternoon, don't worry. Mostly just figuring out timeframes and such.

I moved it all to Dzibanche instead of Calakmul like the later did because Dzibanche is in a better position to dominate the area, connecting the northern and southern lowlands. Also, they are in a resource rich zone, and admittedly another big reason was that I loved the name. In case any of y'all are wondering, the site of Dzibanche TTL is considerably different from the one OTL. Aside from being much larger, it also has extensive canal systems, maybe a defensive wall, and as mentioned the rulers are trying to create pyramids similar to the El Tigre and La Danta compounds OTL. La Danta is actually the tallest pyramid in Mesoamerica at 72 meters, and larger in volume than the Great Pyramid of Giza. The labor used to build such a thing, in addition to the other massive pyramids and canals and chultunes, etc, must have been extremely massive, massive enough perhaps to spark a revolution against the ruling dynasty... After all, such a thing may have happened during the Collapse OTL. After all, during the Postclassic they stopped with the massive construction works.
 
Last edited:
great start...often wondered more about this. Unfortunately I know bugger all about the Mayans so keep it up for the rest of us who haven't been exposed to them much.

foresterab
 
Actually I'm very much interested in seeing a Mayan TL. It sounds so far like you're well-versed in Mayan history, but then again I know almost nothing about them, so anything sounds impressive! :eek:

Please continue!
 
Well, danke for the support, all of you, and as I promised here is the next chapter coming up. This one is concerning what is really important about the shifts in Mayan societies that keeps them alive through wars, overpopulation, epic drought, etc. Here is where I stop stepping around the path of history and take a huge detour from it instead. There will not be as many city name translations because I already listed the ones you need to know and the names of the cities of the north are actually their true names for the most part.

The Shift of Dynasties, The Fall of and Rise of Kingdoms


The year 738 was a year of destiny for the Mayan people. Most of all it was Mutul who felt the weight of this destiny. The katun [1] of this time had been prophesied by the priests to be one of change, one of warfare and destruction and blood. It was called the Smoke Katun, and the people of Mutul were fearful. Their ally Xuxpi's vassal of Quirigua had turned on them, decapitating Xuxpi's king and making a league with Dzibanche. Even Lakam Ha was suffering raids from Dzibanche itself. The noose around the city of Mutul was tightening, and its king, Yik'in Chan K'awiil, felt truly alone, fearing he was to be the last of his proud lineage.

What Mutul did not know was how much their rivals in Dzibanche were also suffering. Indeed the rulers of that grand city tried to mask their woes with more awesome and spectacular rituals and dances and monuments. But more than anything the people felt it in their bones, and the priests felt it in the count of days. Prophecy had a way of coming true, and in the year of destiny the king Wamaw K'awil took ill and died suddenly, and before the news reached his oldest son Hun Choen, he too died, in combat leading an attack on Mutul itself. The throne fell to the younger son, a young man of ill repute much given to sinful and lewd ways. In mockery of the true lords he named himself Gucumatz [2], after a god-king of the Mexicans. He made much use of slaves from both Mutul and Dzibanche itself to make self-glorifying monuments.

As they started to clear the forest all over again, to make the stucco for the great projects, Ah Tuucha Che, a minor noble, looked on in disapproval. The rulers had become increasingly withdrawn. No longer did they listen to the Popol Na [3], they made slaves of the people and played the tyrant. He decided it was best to talk to the heads of the most prestigious families. Something had to be done.

One afternoon, he found himself in the palace at a banquet that he normally not would've gone to if he wasn't so desperate to stop the rotting influence of the not-so-holy lord. It was a sumptuous feast, with much balche and chocolate to drink, and alligator tails, tapir flesh, and manatee meat to gorge on. But Tuucha Che hardly touched a thing, and drank sparingly from his gourd. He concentrated on summoning the courage to speak to Gucumatz. The boy king was busy laughing with his closest associates, his inner circle who were wary of letting anyone close. He thought he saw an opportunity to speak when a priest tried tell him about some matters he couldn't hear, and Gucumatz just waved him off like a bothersome fly. So Tuucha Che bit his tongue and waited until his guards were to drunk to stop him from approaching.

It came as a surprise to all attendees when Gucumatz finally stood up and addressed everyone present. His eyes looked so glazed from his use overuse of the pipe [4] and consumption of balche that Tuucha was expecting him to drop any second. When he spoke, it was with a strange voice, both boyish but rough with his cracked lungs and slurring tongue.

"My friends, I enjoy having you all here. Even those of you who want me dead!" Tuucha gulped, his heart beating strongly against his chest. "Now, I have heard whispers that some of you want my head. Can you imagine? You think you can kill a god? So my friends, Zinaan Ek, Yax Jol, Mex Cuc Chan, Chan Muyal, and Tuucha Che, I'll miss you." Tuucha hesitated in shock for nearly too long a moment. All but Chan Muyal were men he had conferred with.

But before the nearest guard could lay a hand on him Chan Muyal, the warlord of the kingdom, rose up like a raging jaguar and laid low with his obsidian sword the few guards that would approach him. Tuucha Che and others used that opportunity to flee, and they left the city and escaped offroad, taking with them their families, and those loyal to the Council of Lords and the dead Kan kings. They went into the jungles to the northwest, the Chenes region, and took refuge in Hochob. In that far-off city they hid, nobles, scribes, priests, and the famed warlord Chan Muyal of the south. Tuucha could not figure why Gucumatz would want him dead, but he was glad to have one like him on his side.

In that quiet city he conversed with the other exiles, most notable of them being the young scribe Zinaan Ek, popular among the priests, and the warlord, over the fate of the kingdom if and when they reclaimed it. Gucumatz was the last of his line, and he had neither any wives nor children. But he had to die. The Kan line would be destroyed. The people might not have any faith in a new dynasty, unless they could prove that they were of divine ancestry. For this, Zinaan Ek agreed to use his influence to get Tuucha Che's great-uncle, prince of a northern city, deified. Chan Muyal refused the governorship, and agreed to support him. They all agreed to end the exhaustion of resources, stop the enslavement of the people of Dzibanche (nothing was said about Mutul slaves), and feed the people rather than the lords only.

Now the only question was how to take back the city itself. The Eagle Warriors' loyalty lay with the king, but the Jaguars were possibly more open to persuasion. More importantly, Chan Muyal had faith in his ability to round up the holcanes [5] of the towns, and the militias. Eventually, after a year in the Chenes, the exiles made their way back to Dzibanche. Most towns on the way agreed to support them, rounding up all the available warriors, emptying the armories, and getting the holcanes. To get past the walls, they sneaked by the sentries via canoes, going under the wall itself. As soon as the breached the city, they fell upon those loyal to the king, those enemies who did not throw down their weapons and sling their shields in the sign of surrender.

Chan Muyal himself stormed up the steps of the tallest pyramid, where Gucumatz was hiding in his personal shrine, and instead of sparing him for the sacrifice of royalty, the warlord dashed Gucumatz's head upon his own idols, until his limbs stopped twitching and the young king was a broken gory body. The day was marked on the stelae commemorating the new dynasty, 9.15.7.12.0 8 Ahau 13 Uo (March 7, 739). Then was the establishment of a new king, K'inich Ahau Tuucha Che Kauil. Lightning and Fire was their symbol, divined by the priests which thought it most auspicious. And so the new dynasty was the K'awiil, named for the lightning god, the axe of Chac and symbol of kings, and it was to last a thousand years.

The kings of the K'awiil lineage were known as being progressive. In addition to halting progress on the 72 meter tall Sun temple, and the 55m Moon temple, they gave much importance to the Popol Na at least initially, although later leaders also began to disregard them. In the 9th Century, they started using slash-and-char methods of farming to save more land for better usage, and to provide more bountiful harvests by better enriching the soil. Eventually, the sons of Tuucha Che Kauil were the ones to end the kingdom of Mutul for the final time. After that city was sacked in a bloody battle, the line of the exiled Mutul king, the descendants of Dzibanche's ally Balaj Chan K'awiil, were set up as the new rulers of the no-longer great city. All Mutul had now was the prestige of their past and the assurance of peace. With the great war that spanned more than a hundred years finally at a close, the people of the Land of Turkey and Deer survived the great droughts and other disasters which followed. The prophecies of destruction, death, and chaos had come true, but the people had survived them all. Cities which seemed doomed continued to grow. What some priests had called the "End of Times" [6] was not to come true.
-----------
Basically, the divergences here from OTL are that instead of moving the capital of the Kan to Calakmul, it stayed at Dzibanche. Also, the Kan dynasty falls, and so does the city of Tikal which IOTL defeated Calakmul before collapsing. Also, the changes that marked the end of the Classic Era happen a hundred years earlier, but without the cities all collapsing. Basically, the changes were the kings had less power, and instead of making the pyramids the focus of all worship, homes all started to make greater use of personal shrines and that's why there were less monumental works done later. They also may have had better farming techniques. ITTL, they also start slash-and-char. This means the land won't be nearly as deforested as it was OTL, and cities will be more dense but typically still have room for personal gardens and the like, which the Maya were fond of. This way they'll be able to support the massive populations of around 3 million as some people think. The major cities at the end of the OTL Classic were Tikal, Calakmul, Yaxchilan, Copan, and Palenque, but ITTL it'll end with Dzibanche, Yaxchilan, Kaminaljuyu, and the puppet leaders of Mutul in charge.
-----------
[1] Katuns were periods of 20 years. The Mayan counting system was vigesimal, instead of decimal like ours, meaning that they went by twenties rather than tens like we do. As such the katun was noted rather than decades. Katuns were of great importance to the Maya, and in addition to each being given a nickname they celebrated each beginning with monuments and rites. They also made famous katun prophecies, and had lords of the katun chosen from the governors of prominent cities (or likely less important ones in the Classic era) and these lords held supreme power for their term of office. They also had seats of the katun, cities chosen this time for great honor, tribute, and power.

[2] This king Gucumatz is fictional, but the name refers to the famous Quetzalcoatl.

[3] Popol Na means the House of the Mat, a council house of nobles of the ruling families and other such officials. In later times they had much influence, sometimes they ran entire states too. They were called that because the mat was a symbol of authority in all of Mesoamerica.

[4] Mayan tobacco is very, very strong.

[5] Holcanes are not like the guys in Apocalypto. They were the professional warriors of each kingdom, well armed and armored, and they were responsible for training the militias if they were raised.

[6] The Mayan Collapse of OTL
 
Last edited:
Awesome. I love the epic feel of this.

Question: was there any OTL precedent for slash/burn farming among the Maya? Or is this a new addition of ATL? And if the latter how did they discover it?

Also, what's the exact POD? The survival of the dissenters, or before then?
 
So a denser populated Maya within thicker rainforest... I like where this is going. :)

Also, what about the Toltec migrations? Will they be butterflied away or handled quite differently?
 
The Maya did do Slash-and-burn farming, and it eventually resulted in widespread deforestation and soil erosion as they tried to support a gigantic population of millions, and the forests were also cut down to feed stucco production. TTL, a lucky discovery or explorers to South America have brought about Slash-and-char, a better method used at the time as far north as Colombia. Also, the stucco production is no longer as necessary as the pyramids have stopped growing for the most part. With the surviving forest they got a better chance to survive Collapse.

The PoD was in the first post. Basically, instead of switching the Kan capital from Dzibanche to Calakmul in the Early Classic era, it stayed at Dzibanche. This puts them in a more strategic position. The plight of the dissenters was an entirely fictional bit, which I thought necessary to end stagnation and ruin. Much of it is inspired by tales of the Postclassic, especially of the episode of Hunac Ceel's overthrow of Chichen Itza. Even the language of the piece was somewhat inspired by that. You can read it by searching "Books of Chilam Balam" on google and you get good results. Just go here if you want to read my inspiration: http://sacred-texts.com/nam/maya/cbc/index.htm

Nicksplace27: Ah, the Toltec migrations! That will be covered next chapter. They will happen, however, much as they did OTL. Their influence on the Mayas is of great importance. After all, it was the biggest hallmark of the new era.

The next update will be on the coming of the Toltecs, and the other Mexicans. It will also cover the developments of the Northern Lowlands which shall be of great importance in the future of TTL Yucatan. Although the south survived, they shall still lose much influence, in addition the the north growing in size. The next update will also contain all the developments in Yucatan regardless of area prior to the Spanish Contact, and any butterflies that may have occurred in Mexico itself. After that I will go on to describe the first series of Spanish contacts, and there will be many more historical personages rather than the two or three I mentioned here.
 
Last edited:
This looks fantastic! I will be following, and looking forward to seeing what will come of this new, improved civilisation.
 
Top