Land of Sweetness: A Pre-Columbian Timeline

Cause they did IOTL!
Will Meso American influence through the Llama Wool trade influence them to change their economy in a certain way.
Are there any possible areas where Llama's and Alpacas can survive and adapt in MesoAmerica?[/QUOTE]
Maybe the trade is conducted through the government.
i was downloading some papers on the incan empire that seem to show evidence of non state run smaller mining operations in incan Peru. Seems like, while very centralized, there was still an amount of non state activity. (Quichua NEP, anyone? :p )
I can send the pdf if yall want and have time to setup a throwaway email
 
So I'm guessing the Manta were absorbed into Quechan society.
As mentioned, the Manta were never fully conquered by the Inca, who did not assert their direct authority along the coast north of Tumbes on the modern Peru-Ecuador border. Archaeology and Spanish accounts both suggest that the campaigns of Wayna Qhapaq only created Inca-supported buffer states and indirect zones of influence in lowland Ecuador. We do not know whether this was because the Inca considered coastal Ecuador as de poca estimación ("of low estimate"), as Spanish chronicler Pedro Cieza de León maintains, or simply because Inca troops from the mountains and deserts lacked the experience to conquer such a wet area, as a more recent historian suggests. There was thus never any absorption of the Manta into Quechua society.

Rather, the area was depopulated to an unusually terrible degree following Spanish conquest. Venetian traveler Girolano Benzoni notes that the Manta town of Jocay, once with "more than twenty thousand inhabitants,” was now home to a mere fifty Indian inhabitants just thirty years after Pedro de Alvarado (slaughterer of unarmed Aztec nobility in the Great Temple of Tenōchtitlan) and Diego de Almagro conquered the area in the 1530s. Alvarado's campaign alone, which involved 3,200 troops (500 Europeans, 200 Africans, and 2,500 Mesoamericans), massacred tens of thousands of Manta. The subsequent introduction of tropical disease, high levels of colonial exploitation, and exceptionally large numbers of European and African immigrants meant that population decline were exceptionally devastating.

According to Newson's data (Life and Death in Early Colonial Ecuador), there were an estimated 120,000~240,000 Manta prior to the conquest. By 1561, there were 5,000 "tributary Indians" in the jurisdiction of Puerto Viejo (corresponding to Manta country), with an estimated total native population of 25,000.

By 1605, there were only 358 "tributary Indians" and 1,500 natives in the entirety of the Puerto Viejo district.

Such terrible mortality rates — "one of the highest calculated for any region in the entire New World" — made it impossible for a coherent Manta identity to survive the conquest.

(Even the affinity of their language is unknown. By 1600 the remnants of the native population were already speaking Spanish.)

Will Meso American influence through the Llama Wool trade influence them to change their economy in a certain way.
It's a little early to be talking about the Inca. The highland peoples of Ecuador were linked through commerce, not the sort of Central Andean redistribution systems that the Inca employed. The polities of the northern Andes had a royally supported class of elite long-distance traders called the mindaláe, and explicit comparisons have been made between them and Mesoamerican merchant classes. Inca imperial policy appears to have envisaged the gradual replacement of mindaláe with the vertical Inca system, at least since northern Andean languages from areas under extensive Inca rule lack a word for them. ITTL, who knows if the Inca will conquer Ecuador, or even defeat Chimú and take over the coast at all?

That in mind I hope those royal boats have some kind of waterproofing
Mesoamerica had a wide variety of waterproofing agents for canoes, including bitumen (used since Olmec times), tar, asphalt, and liquid latex and other forms of resin. I don't know much about the chemistry of wood, but would that be enough? And of course, the foreign is always valuable as a prestige good in itself; Thornton has demonstrated (Africa and Africans in the Making of the Atlantic World) that European iron was no better and often worse than African iron and that African textiles were enough to meet local demand, but Africans still imported fair qualities of both from Europe.
 

Vuu

Banned
Maybe the Incas start to breed llamas for a beast of burden role or riding animal? OTL they're not so good for that, too fragile or something
 
Maybe the Incas start to breed llamas for a beast of burden role or riding animal? OTL they're not so good for that, too fragile or something
That's possible. Plus to add on the Yucayan Highland would be a perfect area for llama breeding, as long as you avoid the jungles lol. Still I wonder if Meso American and Native American improve their ships, so as to be able to carry large mammals. This might have more benefits later on concerning trade.
 
Mesoamerica had a wide variety of waterproofing agents for canoes, including bitumen (used since Olmec times), tar, asphalt, and liquid latex and other forms of resin. I don't know much about the chemistry of wood, but would that be enough? And of course, the foreign is always valuable as a prestige good in itself; Thornton has demonstrated (Africa and Africans in the Making of the Atlantic World) that European iron was no better and often worse than African iron and that African textiles were enough to meet local demand, but Africans still imported fair qualities of both from Europe.
Either of those would work okay. Tar/pitch has been used to waterproof boats since ancient times (and today for some people), but in the case of balsa wood perhaps used as an outer layer below and near the waterline. Usually when you're waterproofing lightweight woods like balsa you want to go with a very thin sealant so it penetrates well and also toughens the surface; Mesoamericans would have to use one of the lighter resins in this case at least for the starting layer.

Come to think of it, does anyone actually use balsa as a main hull material? I tried looking online for examples, and the closest I got was this old web page about an 'unorthodox' balsa canoe project; everything else is forum posts about people asking if they can use balsa for X part of a boat only to be met with "no, it's too soft and weak". Which makes a lot of sense in hindsight, but I always thought it was a strong wood??? Of course, my experience with it doesn't go past the odd model. Maybe because it's technically a 'hardwood' but apparently not a hard wood. I guess using thick logs adds to the structural integrity, too.

Well that's actually...slightly disappointing. Hmm.

Maybe the Incas start to breed llamas for a beast of burden role or riding animal? OTL they're not so good for that, too fragile or something
Define 'beast of burden'? They're already that but I'm sure you mean something like a draft animal, although I don't know what tasks they would honestly be useful for in the Andes.

I'm sure it's technically within the Incas' abilities to breed larger and stronger llamas, but what's the incentive?
 
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I belive the llamas the inca used could carry something like 50kg maximum. There were great big herds used for transporting goods.
 
I mean on that scale you don't get all that much of an advantage compared ot porters as OTL.
Yeah sure, but The men that aren't used as porters that could do some other more benéfical works, like till The field or textiles
 
Yeah sure, but The men that aren't used as porters that could do some other more benéfical works, like till The field or textiles

I feel like that begs the question of how many men would be freed up compared to the people who would be traveling anyways. Unless some form of commercial scrip or debt becomes more of a currency-like object or form of transaction. Which Khipu would be perfect for recording now that I think of it...
 
I mean on that scale you don't get all that much of an advantage compared ot porters as OTL.
The greatest advantage here is that giraffe sheep porters don't have to carry their feed with them, whereas long naked ape porters have to add that to their load, along with supplies for cooking, storage, and sometimes sleeping.

Giraffe sheep also are ardent believers in a 'greater good' and thus do not ask for any payment other than a pat on the head, the occasional sweet potato treat and the smiles on the faces of the children they provided with food and toys. Greedy long apes, especially those hired to lift things up and put them down somewhere else, ask for burdensome things such as "wages", "warm fires", and "dental plans" -- as we all know, obstacles to progress.

Plus there's the fact that their load capacity is nearly twice that of even a professional Mesoamerican porter, and are great at navigating rugged terrain, so yeah...llamas are a huge advantage.
 
^LOL. IOTL Llamas had an issue when it came to traversing the Peruvian lowlands first, but eventually adapted to it. If llamas are able to be shipped over to Meso America quick enough, they can really fill a niche that the porters can't. Plus several more years of selective breeding can turn the llama into not just a bigger source of meat and wool, but an ever bigger and sturdier pack animal.
 
I know that Llamas are cool and I think that their introduction into mainland Mesoamerica is amazingly important in this context. However why is no one talking of the humble potato? This simple tasty vedge was responsible for the demographic explosion of western Europe pre agricultural revolution that leads to the population surplus that powered the colonial expansion of northern Europe!
Maize was a destructive crop long term monocrops lead to disaster in non industrial societies. Potato's will allow marginal land to be used for potato and market garden crops while Maize remain the prestige crop (as time advances more types could be imported considering the OTL Incans development of multiple varieties to deal with different environmental and other considerations.) this might reduce the pressure on the forest that helped lead to the Mayan collapse pre Spanish conquest. (not being gross) the introduction of guinea pigs might also help the protein situation as well? especially as this would introduce the idea of domesticating animals further than the OTL Mesoamerica and Mayan peoples (with deer parks and other semi domesticating stuff) Llamas when they arrive will replace porters ASAP especially if you have to pay them wages!! monetary pressure will force innovation as much as military ones....
 
Er, wasn't this otl and ttl? Per the timeline and our understanding, maize was just one part of a larger crop package that included currently common plants like squash and certain types of beans as well as manioc and yucca/plantain type foods.
 
I know that Llamas are cool and I think that their introduction into mainland Mesoamerica is amazingly important in this context. However why is no one talking of the humble potato? This simple tasty vedge was responsible for the demographic explosion of western Europe pre agricultural revolution that leads to the population surplus that powered the colonial expansion of northern Europe!
Maize was a destructive crop long term monocrops lead to disaster in non industrial societies. Potato's will allow marginal land to be used for potato and market garden crops while Maize remain the prestige crop (as time advances more types could be imported considering the OTL Incans development of multiple varieties to deal with different environmental and other considerations.) this might reduce the pressure on the forest that helped lead to the Mayan collapse pre Spanish conquest. (not being gross) the introduction of guinea pigs might also help the protein situation as well? especially as this would introduce the idea of domesticating animals further than the OTL Mesoamerica and Mayan peoples (with deer parks and other semi domesticating stuff) Llamas when they arrive will replace porters ASAP especially if you have to pay them wages!! monetary pressure will force innovation as much as military ones....
When maize initially overtook the Eastern Agricultural Complex in the Eastern Woodlands, monocropping was an issue in many places because corn was so much more convenient than most of the earlier domesticates. When beans arrived via western middlemen, nutrition balanced out and led to the development of the "three sisters" system (though EAC crops were far from extinct and were supplementary vegetables or secondary crops in many areas; nearly status quo ante bellum in some Eastern Seaboard regions).

But Mesoamerica is not the Eastern Woodlands, and maize monocropping was never a trend to my knowledge. There's fruits and vegetables there most people have never heard of, and crops like chia and amaranth were as (if not more) important staples as maize in many places in Central Mexico. Mesoamerican protein deficiency is also a rather old myth and there are many ways for someone of that time to get their daily protein requirements.

Potatoes would still be a very useful crop, but keep in mind Mesoamericans OTL also had sweet potato (and jicama, which is very productive in warm areas), which is a versatile crop in itself; the entire plant can be eaten. Cassava also competes well with potatoes in terms of nutrition and cultivation, but I'm not sure about yield. Too lazy to look up the numbers.

EGJ's TL is a little late to be 'saving' the Classic Maya. But if you ask me, that's kind of a good thing. The Postclassic Maya still have cities, still have powerful governments and have a pretty good thing going for themselves, in many ways better than the Classic Maya ever had it. Best leave the narcissistic, hypercompetitive k'uhul ajaw'ob to the codices of time. I like what he's doing with the Yucatan right now, turning it into something even more connected and setting a stage for steady development.
 
NO LONGER CANON: Entry 10: Iconography and Syllabary (superseded by Entry 40)
From a letter by a sixteenth-century Spanish missionary.

Everything is upside-down in the West Indies.

It is European custom for the well-bred to read and write, the lesser-born to do neither. But here in Mexico, it is strictly the burghers, the merchants and the peddlers, who write. Their grandees and magnates can read and write as well as any merchant, but they will not be caught dead with a scroll in their hand. They think of their own alphabet as a thing to be ashamed of, as a sign of such personal dullness and slow-wittedness that mere mnemonics must be resorted to. How strange they are!

The Indian nobles read paintings instead. This is no misspelling; they read their paintings.

I give you my own sketch of one of their paintings below, said to be the illustration of a little-known poem by a man of Mexico.

1J3Aek9.png


I have asked ten Indian nobles to interpret this painting. Three each were from Mexico and Chontalpa, two from Haiti, one from Michoacán, and the last from Nicaragua. Two of the Chontal Indians knew the Mexican language; the other five did not.

They have all given me an almost identical interpretation:

I, a ruler who remembers rulers, the singer, with sad flower tears set my song in order, remembering the princes who lie shattered, who lie enslaved in the place where all are shorn, who were lords, who were kings on earth, who lie as dried plumes, who lie shattered like jades. If only this could have been before these princes' eyes; if only they could have seen what is now seen on earth, this, this knowledge of the Ever Present, the Ever Near.
The Indians say:
  1. Because the man on the bottom left faces the viewer, this is “I.”
  2. From the attire of this man and the mat on which he stands, “I” must be a ruler.
  3. “I” is crying tears that turn to flowers. His expression is that of grief.
  4. “I” is singing, as seen by the speech scroll that issues from “I”’s mouth like a tattooed tongue. “I” is handling and arranging these scrolls – these songs.
  5. The upper-right box connects to “I”’s head. This means that “I” is thinking these things.
  6. The black footsteps in the box leading to “I”’s head means that “I” is not only thinking, but remembering. If the footsteps led away from the head, he would be predicting.
  7. There are black footsteps leading to the lower half of the box, meaning that the upper half is in the relative past.
  8. The upper half portrays three kings on a grassy vale. Because they are not numbered as three, the meaning is simply “kings” and not specifically “three kings.”
  9. The lower half has two boxes. One shows these lords torn apart and tied with thin lines to broken shards of jade. The other shows them enslaved by a multitude of shorn men and tied with thin lines to desiccated feathers. These thin lines signify a comparison between dissimilar elements.
  10. Because these boxes are under the earth, they must be the land of the dead.
  11. The lower right box’s position relative to the other elements of the painting means that it signifies a supposition or a wish. Because the box points toward “I,” it is “I” who is wishing these things.
  12. The heads of the lords portrayed in the box above are in this box. The rest of the images in the box are enclosed in a bracket issuing from the eyes of each of the lords; “I” thus wishes that these lords would see something.
  13. Two brackets that point to the torments of the dead lords above. “I” thus wishes that the lords of the earth would see “this,” their future fate in the underworld. The doubling of the brackets is emphasis. There is also a stylized eye signifying “knowledge.” “I” wishes that the lords of the earth would see a knowledge of something.
  14. The final bracket issues from the eye and encloses the characters for “night” and “wind.” To the Indians, the Night and the Wind are a name of God, because God is said to be invisible like night and intangible like wind. Another of their names for God is "Ever Present, Ever Near."
All the Indian lords knew this, even without knowing the Mexican language.

In the West Indies, every fresco and portrait is a book.

Privately, and when haste is called for, even the lords write in the alphabet. The alphabet of Mexico has sixty letters of lines and squares, shared throughout the West Indies. The Indians say that this alphabet was invented by a rich merchant-king in the Maya city of Xicalango, who simplified the hundreds of characters of the Maya so his merchants could know how much of what to sell, and when; this seems to me to be the case as well. I will expound on my reasoning in a later letter.

Each character in their alphabet stands for a vowel and a preceding consonant. When a syllable ends in a consonant, the letter starting with that additional final consonant and with the vowel “i” is added at the bottom of the main letter. The same principle applies for a long vowel. They write in our direction, and not the Moors’.

I have written a part of the Lord’s Prayer in their alphabet below, as you asked.

e9oput7.png


Yet I cannot help but fear that the lords of Mexico will only laugh at us if we were to write the Holy Bible in their alphabet; it would be as if we were to make a new Bible of our own, changing each noble and sanctified word with childishness and crude vulgarities. Only with portraits and pictures will the great men believe.​

* * *

I apologize for the poor quality of my pencil sketches.

Postclassic Mesoamerican writing experienced two opposing movements.

The first was the movement towards a more pictographic system, with less abstraction and less relation to the spoken language. The Aztecs and their neighbors “wrote” in standardized pictures with no direct relation to the spoken word. Many historians refer to such picture-writing as an example of an “iconic semasiographic system,” a category which today includes road signs and cleaning instructions.

(“Iconic” refers to the pictographic nature of such systems in opposition to arbitrary semasiographic systems, like modern mathematical formulas and musical notations. “Semasiographic,” from Greek sēmainein “signify,” means that the system expresses the writer’s meaning directly without the intermediary of spoken language.)

This was a useful strategy, and Mesoamerican resorted to iconic systems for much the same reasons we do. Just as standardized road signs allow a Korean to drive in Germany without knowing any German,

Most of the images on the pages of the Matrícula [Aztec book of tax registers]… make little direct reference to a specific language. This was a conscious—indeed essential—communication strategy. The Matrícula was created to show the tribute brought to Tenochtitlan by people from throughout the Aztec empire, many of who spoke languages very different from Nahuatl (the language spoken by most people in Central Mexico). Because phonetic writing systems require translation in multilingual contexts, it is often more effective to use non-phonetic strategies for writing and documentation. Most of the information recorded on the pages of the Matrícula could be understood by speakers of Mixtec, Otomi, Zapotec, Maya, and even Spanish and English speakers today, five centuries later.​

(Source)

To give you a very simple example, here’s the first page of the Codex Boturini, an Aztec codex from the 1530s.

Tira-1.jpg


It’s difficult to tell what’s going on from the picture alone, just as no Aztec could have understood our road signs without training. But a Mesoamerican could tell:
  • On the island to the left, the man and the woman are dressed and sitting in what is a stereotypically Aztec manner. This suggests that these people represent the Aztecs as a nation.
  • A shield is connected to the Aztec woman. Her name must have something to do with a Shield.
  • The island has houses and a small pyramid; the Aztecs on the island are thus living in a city. There is a stylized image of water and reed on top of the pyramid, which must represent the name of the island.
  • A man is paddling across the lake on a canoe. This symbolizes the action of crossing the lake.
  • Footsteps lead from the lakeshore to a curved hill. Footsteps, of course, symbolize movement.
  • A small human head wearing a hummingbird helmet is inside the hill. Speech scrolls are issuing from the head. The head is enclosed in a reed shelter.
  • Footsteps lead away from the hill and off the page.
  • The cartouche in the middle has a flint stone next to a single circle.
Without knowing any Nahuatl, Mesoamericans could reasonably “translate” this picture as:

The Aztecs once lived in the Place of Water and Reed, a small island city in the middle of a lake. They were led by a certain Shield Woman. In the year 1 Flint, they crossed the lake and came to the Curved Hill. There, they encountered or built a small reed temple for a Hummingbird God, who gave them orders, presumably (based on the footstep leaving the page) to go further on. So the Aztecs left the Curved Hill.​

This is quite similar to the actual story:

The Aztecs once lived in Aztlān [represented with a water and reed glyph], a community in an island lake. In the year 1064 A.D. [1 Flint in the Aztec calendar], the god Huītzilōpōchtli [Nahuatl for “Left Foot like a Hummingbird”] told the Aztecs to migrate. They crossed the lake and came to Cōlhuahcān [cf. cōlihui, the Nahuatl verb for “to curve”]. They were accompanied by the female spirit Chimalmā [Nahuatl for “Shield Hand”]. In Cōlhuahcān, they constructed a simple reed temple for Huītzilōpōchtli. The god then ordered them to go further on, and so the Aztecs left Cōlhuahcān.​

A trained Mesoamericanist can accurately interpret far more complex paintings, like this page of the Codex Selden, a Mixtec book of history about the dynasty of Añute.

selden01.jpg


At the same time, Late Postclassic Mesoamerica showed tendencies of moving towards a more phonetic system that represented the spoken language directly. All Mesoamerican writing systems lay on a spectrum between “full semasiography,” with no linguistic elements whatsoever, and “full phonetic representation,” totally dependent on the spoken language. Neither extreme was ever reached.

As mentioned, Aztec picture-writing was basically semasiographic. Yet proper nouns were regularly written with the aid of a series of phonetic glyphs: pictures that represented the first syllable of their word. In one Aztec text, for instance, the name “[Mo]tēuczōma” (Moctezuma) is written not semasiographically with a painting of an angry lord (the famous name comes from tēuctli “lord” and zōma “irritate”) but with a stone (tetl in Nahuatl), a bowl (comitl), a lump of clay (probably from tzohcuiltic, “dirty”) and a hand (itl): Te-Co-Tzo-Mā.

However, Aztec syllabic writing was still limited in both use – they were reserved almost exclusively for proper nouns, where iconography would be unacceptably ambiguous – and versatility. One telling fact is that Spanish glosses of Aztec codices suggest that Aztec scribes had not yet invented glyphs for the syllables ti and qui. This is despite the fact that ti- was the Nahuatl morpheme for the pronoun “we” and qui- the morpheme for “him; her; it.”

915px-L%C3%A1minas_8_y_9_del_C%C3%B3dice_de_Dresden.jpg


More famous is the Maya script. Unlike the Aztec or Mixtec systems, Maya glyphs are clearly distinguishable from iconography and capable of directly transcribing anything said in the Maya language. This of course means that written Maya cannot be understood by a layman, not even to the limited degree that a modern American layman can interpret Aztec iconography.

There is some evidence to suggest that Mesoamericans in both Central Mexico and Maya country were using more innovative phonetic symbols in larger quantities. Perhaps Cortés interrupted the development of a full Mesoamerican syllabary.

To sum up, there are two opposing tendencies in Mesoamerican writing. One favored a pictographic and iconographic system detached from the spoken word, leaving more to ambiguity but allowing easy understanding by speakers of different languages. Another favored a system that transcribed the spoken language directly, eliminating ambiguity beyond what was normally present in speech but impeding cross-cultural understanding.

A syllabary would certainly be more useful for commercial purposes, and commerce has grown significantly ITTL. But so has cross-cultural contact, where an iconographic system would be immensely valuable.

My solution is a sort of literary diglossia, a little like the situation in Early Modern Korea where Classical Chinese was the writing of public discourse and the Han’gŭl script the writing of the private and feminine spheres. The nobility of TTL’s New World now has an even more formalized iconographic system that is much less ambiguous than what we had OTL – I'm not aware of anything like using footprints to mark temporal relations within a picture IOTL. But as beautiful and useful as this painting-writing is, it’s inefficient for more practical purposes, and so we have a syllabary, one that I made by simplifying the OTL Maya syllabary until they were nothing but squares and lines, a little like the abstraction the Chinese script or our own alphabet underwent.

There are some fantastic resources out there about Mesoamerican writing systems:
 

Vuu

Banned
Seems ludicrously convoluted to write in basically not even hieroglyphs

I recommend that they at least move to a Chinese-style system
 
Still it's pretty interesting to see how these different groups communicate while trading. I wonder what weapons will be transferred throughout the Americas, I remember reading about a certain hand held projectile used to incapicate people, and even horses.
 
...Are you sure you're not an archaeologist? Or at least someone in a related field?

You must be getting tired of compliments, but this TL has some incredibly rich, well-researched descriptions of culture that really puts the reader into the perspective of these cultures. It's what I really like in a good TL and I can't get enough. Even better: it raises awareness of an America most people are pretty much in the dark about.
Seems ludicrously convoluted to write in basically not even hieroglyphs

I recommend that they at least move to a Chinese-style system
So? Writing down precisely the spoken word isn't the point here. It's a deep-rooted cultural tradition with its own nuance and artistic value applied to it. Not everything has to ascribe to some nonexistent universal ranked standard of practicality-based quality. For the purpose it serves, pictographic codices are both useful and engaging art forms. Don't think of it as communication with artistic elements, think of it as art with communicative power. If it's difficult or 'convoluted' at all, then understanding it just adds to how cultured a person is. Adopting this dichotomy of communicative means honestly makes perfect sense in a Mesoamerican context.

In any case they do have an alphabet for more mundane needs, but what elite is going to busy himself with the mundane? They have peoples for that!
 
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