Land of araucaria, potatoes and salmon

atlatl

Prologue

♫ Inti-Illimani - Chiloé ♫

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March 3600 BC on the shore of the golf of Ancud

One man travel on his dalca in a gulf with a lot tree on the shore. Fishing have been good as usual in the season of salmon.

Aukargërü land his dalca filled with salmon on the shore at a bivouac where Minchekewün wait him below an araucaria.

"I have fished plenty of salmon" he said.

Minchekewün respond : "Good, I think there were good with my potatoes".

Son after te two men eats one salmon with potatoe and pine nut.

After the meal Aukargërü ask : "Your experiment with potatoes do well ?"

Minchekewün respond : "Yes I harvest several tuber when I plant one tuber. I have planed to plant more this year".

Aukargërü say : "I believe than I will do this when we return to the village. I can done this from tomorrow to the next moon. I think I have finish this just before my bear hunting."
 
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9 Fanged Hummingbird

9 Fanged Hummingbird

I take it this is a TL about the natives of southern South America? I confess I don't know very much about them but would like to see what you have planned. I also couldn't help notice that the name used by Jared for his most well-known TL seems to have created a standard format for TLs regarding more advanced indigenous societies. Even I fell into the trend long ago. :D
 
Huehuecoyotl

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
9 Fanged Hummingbird said:
I take it this is a TL about the natives of southern South America? I confess I don't know very much about them but would like to see what you have planned. I also couldn't help notice that the name used by Jared for his most well-known TL seems to have created a standard format for TLs regarding more advanced indigenous societies. Even I fell into the trend long ago. :D
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I've never heard the like! ;)

Totally looking forward to seeing more of this, particularly how this culture you intend to create will interact with the Andean societies.
 
Cuāuhtemōc

Cuāuhtemōc

Banned
I know next to nothing about the natives of the Southern Cone so this is a change in pace from what's usually written about in this forum. I wish you luck and much support in this endeavor. I'll be anticipating much more. :)
 

atlatl

Chap 1 Evolution of the genus Oncorhynchus in the southern cone.

Several late Miocene [about 7 million years ago (Mya)] trout-like fossils in Idaho, in the Clarkia Lake beds, appear to be of Oncorhynchus. The presence of those species so far inland established Oncorhynchus was present in the Pacific drainages before the beginning of the Pliocene.

4 million years ago fossils show than salmon was established on the Pacific coast of Colombia and Ecuator. 3,5 million years ago it's the first record of Oncorhynchus genus in Chile.

Population of Oncorhynchus deseapering from northern South America 3 million years ago, now the southernest specie in North America is the Mexican golden trout, Oncorhynchus chrysogaster.

Tropical latitude seems to be not a very suited for this genus it is believed than the cold stream of Humboldt favorised just enought this fish to reach Chile.

In southern Chile the condition were similar to the north west coast of North America and in this condition the genus Oncorhynchus diversified leading to the apparition of various species : Oncorhynchus chiliensis in central Chile, Oncorhynchus patagonicus in the both coasts (Atlantic and Pacific) of Patagonia, Oncorhynchus malvini in the Malouines and the biggest Oncorhynchus mapuchi in the maze of island of southern Chile.

This fishs species are very important for the diet of predators, particulary for the Patagonian Bear [1], like the grizzly in the north they eat many salmon.

Like their relative in North America the southern salmon by their number allow the human to build populate and complex society, but contrary from North America the native of the South have a crop at their dispotion : the potatoe who allowed them to build a society even more prosperous.


[1] The patagonian bear (Tremarctos patagonensis) is a relative of the Spectacled bear. He is Brown bear sized and live in the southern Andes. The feast from the southern salmon allow him to evolve and survive the coming of the humans. Him and his little cousin from the northern Andes are the lone survivors of there familly after the disparition of the short-faced bear species in both North and South America.
 
Jonathan Edelstein

Jonathan Edelstein

Please continue with this - like others who have commented, I don't know a great deal about the peoples of the Southern Cone but look forward to your development of them.
 

twovultures

Donor
This is absolutely fascinating! Will the natives of the Araucaria also develop a post-contact horse culture ITTL, combining it with their maritime culture?
 

DG Valdron

9 Fanged Hummingbird said:
I take it this is a TL about the natives of southern South America? I confess I don't know very much about them but would like to see what you have planned. I also couldn't help notice that the name used by Jared for his most well-known TL seems to have created a standard format for TLs regarding more advanced indigenous societies. Even I fell into the trend long ago. :D
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Jared's quite influential. All power to him.

Personally, if I had it to do over again, I'd have called mine "Ultimate Thule." But then again, that's not the only thing I'd do differently...

I'm interested to see what gets made of this timeline. Sign me up.
 

katchen

Banned
Besides potato, they also have quinoa. Which will grow on the east side of the Andes if not on the west side. In Patagonia if nowhere else.
And they also have llama, alpaca ang guanuco for wool. Especially when they learn how to make clippers out of bronze. Their civilization will extend all the way to Cape Horn.
 

DG Valdron

Salmon runs are extremely periodic though. Basically, Salmon are ocean fish, returning to their rivers and lakes to spawn. So for a month, perhaps as short as a few weeks, there are immense numbers of salmom in the rivers, then nothing.

How does that shake out?
 

phx1138

atlatl said:
dalca
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You inspired me to create this. Since your Spanish is obviously better than mine, proofreading & correction of the English version would be appreciated.:)
DValdron said:
Salmon runs are extremely periodic though. Basically, Salmon are ocean fish, returning to their rivers and lakes to spawn. So for a month, perhaps as short as a few weeks, there are immense numbers of salmom in the rivers, then nothing.

How does that shake out?
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The salmon runs support (or help support) all manner of other animals, like bears or wolves, so...

Plus, the salmon carcasses act as fertilizer.
 
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DG Valdron

phx1138 said:
The salmon runs support (or help support) all manner of other animals, like bears or wolves, so...

Plus, the salmon carcasses act as fertilizer.
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Certainly. But due to its nature, it's part of an intermittent subsistence package.

I wonder if the araucaria can master an effective storage and preservation system?
 

atlatl

DValdron said:
Certainly. But due to its nature, it's part of an intermittent subsistence package.

I wonder if the araucaria can master an effective storage and preservation system?
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Araucaria seed also are a intermitent food source and are stored. If they knew seed storage they can triing to store the fish and invent dried fish and later smoked fish. Also the higher source of food allow them to settle. When you are fixed in one place it's more easy to make a field. With higher population the probability to discover farming is more high.
Also coast are one of the wealthiest territories for hunter gatherer.

I think than this mapuches discover agriculture and expand north and South. OTL they did this after getting crops and llama for the north to Chiloé and later in the east when they got horse and cattle from the spannish.

IITL they were more seafaring so they can expand to the South by conquest or assimilation. In the north they have other mapuche and the expanssion of agriculture come more peacefully. Also I think they domestic the guanaco ITTL and expand in the pampa butless rapidly than OTL (they lack horse and the peoples of the pampa aren't damaged by plagues).

The people of pacific coast were more numerous ITTl tank to the salmon but the mapuche were very aggressive OTL so they expand more slowly (but they have century unlike OTL) In the north this not a maze of island with plenty of marine food, then less incentive to expand in this direction.

They have a poor agricultural complex : only potatoes and guanaco (but this come to change with the crops of the OTL agricultural center of the Andes). Perhaps after some century they manage araucaria (they give well but the tree make 35 to 40 years to reach the good size).

With the time they certainly control all the Patagonia and the Malouines.
 

DG Valdron

atlatl said:
Araucaria seed also are a intermitent food source and are stored. If they knew seed storage they can triing to store the fish and invent dried fish and later smoked fish. Also the higher source of food allow them to settle. When you are fixed in one place it's more easy to make a field. With higher population the probability to discover farming is more high. Also coast are one of the wealthiest territories for hunter gatherer.
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Perhaps a bit of background on Araucaria I gather its a tree which produces edible seeds? What are its characteristics?

Food storage and preservation is one of the most overlooked critical areas marking transitions between hunter/gatherers and settled agriculturalists. It's one of the reasons that grain based societies were so historically widespread... grain stores very easily. Other foodstuffs are much more perishable and requires both more effort and more technology to store.

So it's not simply a question of the Mapuche just deciding to store or safe salmon the way they save seeds.


I think than this mapuches discover agriculture and expand north and South. OTL they did this after getting crops and llama for the north to Chiloé and later in the east when they got horse and cattle from the spannish.
Click to expand...

Kind of getting ahead of yourself? I think you'll find that the most fun part is establishing the deep fundamentals of your society and how it jumps the gap.

IITL they were more seafaring so they can expand to the South by conquest or assimilation. In the north they have other mapuche and the expanssion of agriculture come more peacefully. Also I think they domestic the guanaco ITTL and expand in the pampa butless rapidly than OTL (they lack horse and the peoples of the pampa aren't damaged by plagues).

The people of pacific coast were more numerous ITTl tank to the salmon but the mapuche were very aggressive OTL so they expand more slowly (but they have century unlike OTL) In the north this not a maze of island with plenty of marine food, then less incentive to expand in this direction.

They have a poor agricultural complex : only potatoes and guanaco (but this come to change with the crops of the OTL agricultural center of the Andes). Perhaps after some century they manage araucaria (they give well but the tree make 35 to 40 years to reach the good size).

With the time they certainly control all the Patagonia and the Malouines.
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Take it slow...

And 'poor agricultural complex' 'only potatoes'? Come on. Potatoes produce more calories per acre and feed more people per acre than any other crop! And they are tolerant to a range of soils! And you're sitting on 99% of the genetic diversity of the potato in those chilean islands. Wowsers.

Finally, an observation - you've attracted my attention, Twovultures, 9FangedHummingbird, HueHuecoyatl, Johnathan Edelstein, Cuāuhtemōc, etc., it's like a who's who of this board's "Civilization Builders" take a look at our timelines. We're all intrigued by your project and very supportive. If you feel that you are being criticized, please don't take it personally. We're all rooting for you, criticisms are intended to be constructive and a whole bunch of very smart people are rooting for you and hoping to be able to offer useful advice and help.
 
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