Lancastrian England Civil War.

WI: Henry V's two brothers leave surviving heirs. This would mean his brothers Humphrey and John. Would they then try to take the throne from Henry VI, or at least have alot of influence in his government? How would the very abitious Richard Duke of York react to this?
 
They would likely ingratiate themselves closely into his inner circle and try to use him as a puppet, likely vying for power with Margaret of Anjou, Henry's wife.

The biggest change to the POD wouldn't be a likely overthrow, I don't think that's likely. The biggest problem is that it gives the Lancastrians a secure line of succession, and may even prevent a Yorkist insurrection in the first place as the whole country knows that the Yorkists are no longer the best alternatives for the job of King.
 
If Henry VI's uncles were to produce heirs, preferrably males, then the succession question that basically dogged Henry until the birth of his son wouldn't arise. Two or three children each for John and Humphrey would have pushed York so far down the list that attempting to gain the crown would have been suicide, so now Yorkist rebellion.

Now the question becomes with whom and when do the royal uncles have children with?

John, a.k.a. Bedford, was regent of France for his nephew and married to Anne of Burgundy, the sister of Philip III of Burgundy. IOTL Anne died in December 1432 during childbirth, which led to Bedford marrying Jacquetta of Luxembourg. The Duke of Bedford's second marriage was politically disasterous as it angered his brother-in-law, who then signed a peace treaty with France which in turned helped the French in the war. Now let us say that Anne and her child, whether boy or girl, survive thus Bedford's second marriage doesn't happen. Bedford and Anne have two more children bringing their total up to three, with at least one being a male heir. The English-Burgundian alliance continues for a while longer at least thus helping to the English presence in France longer.

Humphrey, a.k.a. Gloucester, was regent of England for his nephew and was first married to Jacqueline, Countess of Holland, however her quarrel with Philip III resulted in an annualment and Gloucester married his mistress Eleanor Cobham, who was tried and convict of witchcraft against the King (though Gloucester's enemies might have had something to do with that). Gloucester and Jacqueline had a stillborn child in 1424 and with Eleanor he had no children. But to illegitimate offspring were a son named Arthur (d. 1447) and a daughter named Antigone who married the 2nd Earl of Tankerville. So let's say Gloucester's stillborn child in 1424 lives and its a boy, who he raises while seperated from Jacqueline until she dies in 1432.

Thus you have besides Henry VI, at least two other male grandchildren of Henry IV. Also as a result of this, Bedford probably doesn't die in 1435 while negoitating the Treat of Arras, which ended the English-Burgundian alliance by making peace between France and Burgundy. Thus Bedford continues supporting the war and giving Humphrey political help in England against the Peace Party headed by Henry Beaufort.

When Henry VI assumed the reins of government in 1437, both of his uncles are alive and able to advise him and considering they have male heirs of their own at this time the efforts of Henry Beaufort are blunted. With Henry VI's foreign policy not firmly in the peace party, the marriage to Maragret of Anjou doesn't occur. And the butterflies just start appearing all over the place...
 
I forgot about Humphrey completely. That would be massive - an heir to the throne of Hainaut, Holland and Bavaria-Straubing. More importantly, if Humphrey and Jacqueline have a son then Philip of Burgundy won't be able to argue for an annulment because it would be pointless - he couldn't shut Jacqueline up anymore as she's already had male issue as a legitimate heir. This would do massive damage to the Anglo-Burgundian alliance, and it would certainly be interesting to see what would happen. John was a great negotiator and soldier but he wasn't Henry V - it's possible he would try to seek an agreement with Philip but I don't know what it could be. Philip, for his part of the bargain, would be furious. The ramifications could be big, and fun to watch, though I'm trying to work out if it could possibly benefit England at all - I'm really not sure.

There's a number of ways it could go, it's really hard to tell. The Englishman in me wants to find a way to make it work out for England but it's hard.
 
I forgot about Humphrey completely. That would be massive - an heir to the throne of Hainaut, Holland and Bavaria-Straubing. More importantly, if Humphrey and Jacqueline have a son then Philip of Burgundy won't be able to argue for an annulment because it would be pointless - he couldn't shut Jacqueline up anymore as she's already had male issue as a legitimate heir. This would do massive damage to the Anglo-Burgundian alliance, and it would certainly be interesting to see what would happen. John was a great negotiator and soldier but he wasn't Henry V - it's possible he would try to seek an agreement with Philip but I don't know what it could be. Philip, for his part of the bargain, would be furious. The ramifications could be big, and fun to watch, though I'm trying to work out if it could possibly benefit England at all - I'm really not sure.

There's a number of ways it could go, it's really hard to tell. The Englishman in me wants to find a way to make it work out for England but it's hard.

Well Philip could argue that such a marriage wasn't legal, because she wasn't proper divorced from John III, the duke of Brabant...
 
What if the future Henry VI died as a baby before his father? Then the Duke of Bedford becomes King of England in August 1422. What happens then when Charles VI of France dies in October? Could John of Bedford make a claim on the French throne? What if he married Catherine, the widow of Henry V?
 
John would certainly claim and fight for the French throne as Henry V's heir general and using the claim of Edward III he would press it. John couldn't marry Catherine for the simple fact she had been his brother's wife, now you'll claim well Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon after his brother Arthur died. Well there was evidence that Catherine of Aragon and Arthur didn't consumate the marriage, you can't say that between Henry V and Catherine since she would have given birth to a boy who didn't survive. Unless John wants to claim Catherine was a whore, which would sorta defeat the purpose.

As the child of Humphrey and Jacqueline, instead of a boy what if it was a girl? Let's call her Mary? To keep the English-Burgundian alliance strong, young Mary is promised to Philip III's heir thus uniting claims and avoiding an attempt by the French to use her as a wedge. Jacqueline might not like it, but if she dies around the same time OTL when Mary is still young then it doesn't matter.
 
You can't ignore York - look at this (Wiki I admit but far easier than searching for something else)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Plantagenet,_3rd_Duke_of_York

His father was executed for his part in the Southampton Plot against Henry V on 5 August, 1415, and attainted. Richard therefore inherited neither lands nor title from his father. However his paternal uncle Edward of Norwich, 2nd Duke of York, who was killed at the Battle of Agincourt on 25 October, 1415, was childless and Richard was his closest male relative.
After some hesitation Henry V allowed Richard to inherit the title and (at his majority) the lands of the Duchy of York. The lesser title and (in due course) greater estates of the Earldom of March also became his on the death of his maternal uncle Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March, on 19 January, 1425. The reason for Henry's hesitation was that Edmund Mortimer had been proclaimed several times to have a stronger claim to the throne than Henry's father, Henry IV of England, by factions rebelling against him. However, during his lifetime, Mortimer remained a faithful supporter of the House of Lancaster.
Richard of York already had the Mortimer and Cambridge claims to the English throne; once he inherited the March, he also became the wealthiest and most powerful noble in England, second only to the King himself.

Being FURTHER away from the succession would make Henry V LESS worried about restoring his honour (= land and titles) so regardless of the Lancastrian kids, Richard is very powerful and thats not going away

What this may mean is that he will become PRIMARILY a military commander, and with success become something of a viceroy within France

Or that a cabal will get at him, something like with Edward II's cousins

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
John would certainly claim and fight for the French throne as Henry V's heir general and using the claim of Edward III he would press it. John couldn't marry Catherine for the simple fact she had been his brother's wife, now you'll claim well Henry VIII married Catherine of Aragon after his brother Arthur died. Well there was evidence that Catherine of Aragon and Arthur didn't consumate the marriage, you can't say that between Henry V and Catherine since she would have given birth to a boy who didn't survive. Unless John wants to claim Catherine was a whore, which would sorta defeat the purpose.

I was actually thinking of what happened in France when Louis XII married his predecessor's widow, Anne of Britanny. And later, when Louis XIII got really ill and was still childless, his brother Gaston said he would marry Louis's widow after becoming King.

This being said, in Louis XII's case, him and Charles VIII were cousins, not brothers.
 
Top