Lancashire Life: An account of The Great Patriotic War

Right, well, of course, it is your TL and you should mould it as you wish. I think what I and others are kicking against is not that Fascism couldn't happen, but that in this scenario it is happening too easily, with too little dissent by the establishment, not just Liberals, but the equivalent of the Prussian Junkers and other Conservative types. Too easy a capitulation lacks credibility. I've been in the US over thirty years though I am a Brit and I have a strong sense of the absolute centrality of the Constitution despite threats against it. It really is utterly fundamental. If you put in more opposition, covert as well as open, and a slower shift to fascism, I would find it more credible. Ultimately though this is your call.
 
Why are we arguing about plausibility in a TL where both Sealion and the German A-bomb project is successful.

Also, would Switzerland really have been conquered that easily? Or is there an active guerilla movement in the Alps? Or is this handwaved away similar to Sealion?

(not a criticism, by the way, I really like your story and I accept the ASBs required for the setting that you have created)
 
I am enjoying this story and think the departures from the real world are required to tell that story. As the narrative is good I don't think that is an issue. it is, after all, fantasy. Crack on!
 
Why are we arguing about plausibility in a TL where both Sealion and the German A-bomb project is successful.

In fairness I think those are more means of creating the setting rather than trying to be the most plausible, you need a Sea Lion-style invasion for a German occupied UK and you need a German A-Bomb to stop the Soviets from defeating Germany in the aftermath. It's a bit contrived but as you say the quality of the writing makes it more than worth it. Arguably criticism of the rise of fascism in the United States is more valid as it's become something a sub-plot to the main story but I think Nick's done quite well in establishing the conditions necessary for it.
 
In fairness I think those are more means of creating the setting rather than trying to be the most plausible, you need a Sea Lion-style invasion for a German occupied UK and you need a German A-Bomb to stop the Soviets from defeating Germany in the aftermath. It's a bit contrived but as you say the quality of the writing makes it more than worth it. Arguably criticism of the rise of fascism in the United States is more valid as it's become something a sub-plot to the main story but I think Nick's done quite well in establishing the conditions necessary for it.

Thanks Red. It is - as you say - a sub plot. I dont want to get bogged down on how we got to the 1957 story. I should perhaps have done more research, but I'm happy that my ATLis plausible. :)
 
Right, well, of course, it is your TL and you should mould it as you wish. I think what I and others are kicking against is not that Fascism couldn't happen, but that in this scenario it is happening too easily, with too little dissent by the establishment, not just Liberals, but the equivalent of the Prussian Junkers and other Conservative types. Too easy a capitulation lacks credibility. I've been in the US over thirty years though I am a Brit and I have a strong sense of the absolute centrality of the Constitution despite threats against it. It really is utterly fundamental. If you put in more opposition, covert as well as open, and a slower shift to fascism, I would find it more credible. Ultimately though this is your call.

Clem, and others.

when i do a final update on US domestic policy 1956-57, I will take all your comments into account.

You say "too easy capitulation lacks credibility". I still maintain that i detect a certain opinion out there that fascism can happen anywhere expect the US. I'm more than happy to push these boundaries, because I truly do disagree...however, I am listening to you and I will bring these issues into the timeline.

cheers all. apologies for the delay in posts. I'm literally bogged down with election work at the moment. ;-)
 
The State of the World 1949-1957 (part 2)

The East Asian Union.


The Far East had started the decade as one of the most dangerous places on the planet. By 1957, large parts of it where becoming the safest.

The rapid and orderly evacuation of US forces from the Far East in 1949 was hailed as a textbook example of precision planning. It took a matter of only a few weeks for tens of thousands of men and arms to leave the hell hole they had been fighting in. The Japanese surrender had meant nothing to those units that were still organised and were still determined to fight in the name of their dead emperor. As a consequence, US and PATO soldiers had found themselves facing an even more ferocious enemy in the jungles of Indo China where their enemy had regrouped to continue the fight. The late 1940s were littered with the thousands dead as the Americans painfully pushed their way through into Burma and Thailand, pursuing an enemy that would retreat and seemingly melt away, only to reappear unexpectedly at their rear.

India itself was a mess of a civil war, with atrocities being committed by both Muslim and Hindu peoples against one another, causing a human catastrophe of biblical proportions, with mass movements of people, and the resulting famines and disease. Local chiefs, princes and clerics controlled areas of the land, and as often allied themselves with the Japanese as attacked them, for their own selfish needs. The US offer of full independence to the whole country in the aftermath of the war only led to even more religious based internal fighting and bickering as the details of the offer was picked apart; peace conference after peace conference ending in fierce arguments and stalemate.

President Kennedy had planned a staged evacuation throughout the latter half of 1949, so that power and materials could be handed over to more moderate elements, to at least give them a fighting chance. After the attacks on the US mainland, all such consideration had been abandoned and the troops, happy at finally getting away from the area, were especially quick to cooperate. Nevertheless, the torching of villages and murders of hundreds of people during the quick marches to the demarcation points was all too apparent.

They left the area, and maintained their only presence on the Asian mainland in the well-fortified and armed garrison port of Singapore. Other units had been redeployed in the region in order to clear out the last remnants of fighting Japanese or rebels within the countless islands of the East Indies, but the bulk of the force had gone, and were not to return for another five years.

The Americans had wisely and deliberately kept clear of the interior of China, watching the long running civil war in that vast country play out to its bloody end. The two sides had of course periodically agreed to work together against Japan during the late 1940s, but inevitably, once the official surrender had taken place, found that they were once again fighting each other, as well as the entrenched Japanese armies still dug in around the cities in the east, Manchuria, and the Korean peninsular. It would take another two years for those remaining armies of occupation to eventually be annihilated, and a further two years for the forces of Mau Zedong to finally win the day in early 1951. His opponent, Chang Kai-Shek had been captured, along with most of his senior staff as they had attempted to flee to the island of Formosa. He and many others were considered traitors to the new Peoples Republic and were summarily tried and executed.

The horrific Chinese civil war may well have ended much earlier had it not been for the military assistance that had been given to the Nationalist forces of Chang Kai-Shek, by the Americans. The Nationalists had used as much of these resources fighting their Communist countrymen as they did the Japanese. When the US soldiers had evacuated from Indo China, a decision had been taken by General Patton that that assistance should now stop. The US had other priorities to consider.

Even before the final victory for Mau, the US had foreseen the evident outcome and had opened up tentative negotiations with the communist state. Nothing was mentioned of the previous aid to their enemies and it suited the communists not to push the point anyway. They wanted a clear signal from the United States that the area of Indo China, now that the US had abandoned it, would fall under their sphere of influence. The US was happy for the Chinese to step in and try to restore order, without really expecting this to ever become a reality. There was still fighting occurring in the north of China and Korea, and the new Mau government was dealing with an independent, and increasingly troublesome, Tibet and Xinjiang. The Americans were confident, and as expected, the Chinese remained on their side of the border, making only minor incursions into Indo China.

The first realisation in the US that they were not dealing with a troop of medieval soldier farmers came in 1952 when, in an audacious and daring move, China invaded and captured the independent island of Formosa, finally bringing an end to their nationalist opponents; who had retreated to and attempted to rebuild their forces from the island. The US accepted that they could do nothing to stop the destruction of their semi-ally, bogged down as they were in Africa, but from that moment vowed to keep a wary eye on this emerging military power.

Relations again began to improve following the German invasion of India, and the Chinese were more than willing to cooperate fully with the US plan to supply weapons and provisions to the various Indian and Afghan groups that were successfully holding the German advance at bay. From the Chinese point of view, they would rather have splintered and divided neighbours than the full might of the Europeans. The US, on the other hand, had never completely abandoned the plans to one day return to the region.

The Chinese patiently waited and patiently re-built their forces, and in 1956 they struck.

The massive invasion of the civil war torn region of Indo China brought about a slow, but inevitable victory for China. The US had, again, been taken by surprise, thinking that the area could not be conquered by a country that was still economically weak, but conquered it was. More organised local rebel groups, as well as Japanese fiefdoms in Burma and Thailand halted the Chinese advance, but by 1957 their borders had too been breached.

Both Boston and Nuremburg reeled in shock when Mau announced the successful testing of a nuclear bomb in the plains of Tibet. No one had known they had developed this technology, and but for a chance discovery of Japanese research facilities in Manchuria, it may not have happened.

The US, in response to this latest development, and fearing that they had taken their attention away from the region for too long, duly advanced from its fortress base at Singapore into the Malaya peninsular, reaching southern Burma by the summer. In addition, the Navy led the operation to capture the island of Ceylon from the Tamil Liberation Front and the People’s Army of Sri Lanka, who had been engaged in their own isolated, on and off, civil war. The operation was costly in terms of lives lost, but it was a regionally strategic move that ensured that the US maintained a strong presence in the area.

The PATO Alliance now covered the countries and the territories broadly bounded by the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans.

It had originally started as an informal code word that articulated the ocean based Alliance, backed up by the dominance of those oceans themselves by the US Navy, but in time, the term “Oceania” would become the colloquial term that described the Alliance

The Chinese installed puppet governments in Korea and Indo China, with nominal authority. Mau stated to the word that they were not conquerors, but were liberators, bringing subjugated peoples into one peaceful union, and would form a new economic and military bloc, known as the East Asian Union to prove this point.

In Oceania, the East Asian Union was simply known as East Asia.

OTL
Mao Zedong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong
Chiang Kai-shek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiang_Kai-shek
 
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Clem, and others.

when i do a final update on US domestic policy 1956-57, I will take all your comments into account.

You say "too easy capitulation lacks credibility". I still maintain that i detect a certain opinion out there that fascism can happen anywhere expect the US. I'm more than happy to push these boundaries, because I truly do disagree...however, I am listening to you and I will bring these issues into the timeline.

cheers all. apologies for the delay in posts. I'm literally bogged down with election work at the moment. ;-)
No, Nick. I do believe that Fascism can happen in the US or anywhere else. I gave the reasons for my concerns and stand by them. I look forward to seeing how this TL procedes. I only wish I could be in the UK now fighting for Labour in the local elections and against the British establishment.
 
No, Nick. I do believe that Fascism can happen in the US or anywhere else. I gave the reasons for my concerns and stand by them. I look forward to seeing how this TL procedes. I only wish I could be in the UK now fighting for Labour in the local elections and against the British establishment.

wish you were here, kissing the proverbial baby on hustings with me! I do think I'll be reelected, but it will be close!

Map coming up next
 
political-world-map-white-thin-b6a - Copy.png
 
We are the dead
A side issue….


The second-hand store lay in a small side street just off Victoria Street, a short distance from Central Hall, London. Some of its customers grandly referred to it as an antique shop, but in truth, it was nothing more than a collection of ‘bric-a-brac’, dusty and for the most part worthless. For the Germans, it was a ‘front’; a fake establishment that was used to entrap unsuspecting civilians (and German soldiers on occasion) who would think to plot against the Reich.

The small bell above the door jingled as the man walked in. The shop keeper looked up from his notes, and was disappointed to see it wasn’t his promised appointment; nevertheless he adopted his usual stooped posture, and smiled at the newcomer:

“Good afternoon sir” came the shopkeepers jovial greeting.

“Good afternoon.”

It was a rather quiet and almost embarrassed reply, as the man shuffled into the shop, looking slightly awkward. The shopkeeper observed the man as unobtrusively as possible, and wondered at his discomfort. Perhaps, after all, he could ensnare another traitor.

“Do you think it will rain” smiled the shopkeeper, trying to create a repartee; a technique he had practised many times before.

“No, no, it still feels quite mild. No clouds in the sky.”

The shopkeeper continued to smile kindly at him.

“Sorry, I apologise”, said the man, “I’m not sure I really want to buy anything! I just came across this place by accident if truth be told. The streets out there are full of German and American agents, all for the Peace Conference, I suppose, and there’s only so many times one can ask to show ones papers.”

The shopkeeper laughed, “True, my good man, true. Now I detect an accent there, and if I’m not mistaken, I’d say you hail from the Valleys. Am I right?”

“Well, not quite the Valleys, but you are close; I’m from Port Talbot in Wales.”

“Now that is interesting. So I’d say you managed to get a work permit to be over in the German zone before the ceasefire last year. Either that or you’re an American spy!” he chuckled.

The man either had no sense of humour, or didn’t see the funny side of the comment as he simply replied “no, I don’t have anything to do with all that. I’m an out of work actor, you see, and I’ve been hoping to get some radio or theatre work with the Propaganda Ministry here in London, but no luck so far.”

The shopkeeper continued to smile at the stranger, as he watched him fidget around the shop, picking up various items to examine, before putting them back on the shelves. He looked to be in his early to mid-twenties with a not unpleasant face.

“Now this is a pretty thing, don’t you think, Mr….?”

“Jenkins, Richard Jenkins” came the reply from the man as he held the glass paperweight with a piece of coral embedded inside. He continued “yes, it is rather nice. How much did you say?”

“Well, as you’re a new, and potentially regular customer, I’ll let you have it for nothing! Only if you promise to come back though!”

Both men chuckled, as the tinkle of the doorbell caused them both to look back towards the entrance.

“Ah”, said the shopkeeper, “I thought you’d forgotten all about me, Mr Blair.”

“Sorry I’m a bit late, Mr Charrington; I was stopped several times and searched by the police out there. The dam place is crawling with officers, for the peace conference, I suppose.”

“Oh don’t you worry about it. Now, this is Mr Jenkins, and he’s from Wales would you believe.”

The two men politely shook hands.

“Now, Mr Jenkins, I hope you don’t think I’m being rude, but Mr Blair and I have some business to attend to in my little office. You feel free to carry on looking, and just give me a shout if you need anything.”

Mr Blair and Mr Charrington made their way through the back of the shop, all the while the familiar hum of the tune of ‘Oranges and Lemons’ coming from the mouth of the amiable shopkeeper.

Eric Blair had first met Charrington when he had wondered into the shop to buy a notebook. He was running late for a meeting at the Propaganda Ministry, where ideas for a new book were to be discussed. He enjoyed, what could only be described as a mutually beneficial relationship with the various Nazi officials that ran Southern Britain. He would get some of his books published and they would not kill him. Eric was more than happy with this arrangement.

As someone who had fought on the side of the Socialists in the Spanish Civil War, Eric Blair had been arrested and detained following the German occupation of Britain. They knew about his previous works – ‘Down and out in London and Paris’, ‘Burmese Days’ and ‘The Road to Wigan Pier’, and these socialist tracts were enough to get him killed. It was Stalin and pigs that saved his life. The Germans had found unpublished manuscripts of his latest novel ‘Animal Farm’ and decided, after a few alterations, to make the book a more obvious critique of communism. Blair would be better suited working for them in the Propaganda Ministry and so the association of survival began.

He had to keep his views to himself, but Blair was no Nazi sympathiser. Far from it, he despised them as all right thinking members of the human race should. He imagined the inevitable conclusion to their reign of terror and started jotting down notes, the parchments hidden in various places in his home. Soon, the notes became a story, and soon the story became a book. He envisaged an horrific world set forty years after the German occupation of Britain, in which they controlled the whole of Europe and the Middle East. It was a society that was broken, the masses shuffling to and from the factories under the jackboot and the ever watchful eye of the Fuhrer, featured on posters all over the place. He watched the new government buildings being erected in London and pictured the future, whereby these places would be huge monoliths standing imposing over the subdued population. He foresaw the sinister use of television that would enable the tyrants to watch the populations every move through a two way screen. In this world, there would be no hope, as every element of individuality was violently smashed out of the brains of the subjugated population. Even the rest of the world was no better, with similar fascist style tyrannies ruling. In this future world, Blair pictured three huge empires that were to be called Germania, Eurasia, and Pacifica.

Seven years after the occupation, in 1947, Blair was diagnosed with TB, and concluded to himself that if indeed his days were numbered, then he could risk the forfeit of his life by seriously considering getting his manuscripts published. This was where Mr Charrington came in. Blair had established quite quickly, after their first meeting that Charrington was a member of the British Resistance Force, and they had consequently been secretly meeting for the last two years. Blair would bring finished manuscripts to Charrington’s shop, and the kindly shop keeper would stash them away, where ultimately they were to be transported to the United States for publication. He liked and trusted the elderly and cheerful Charrington.

Charrington gestured to the chair:

“Please sit down Mr Blair. Tea?”

“Yes please, thank you.”

“Did you decide upon a title yet, by the way?” he said as he busied himself with the teapot.

“I did. I think I’ve finally settled upon ‘1980’, being precisely forty years from the occupation.”

“I like it. Simple and to the point” said the shopkeeper.

Charrington went to get the cups from the cupboard and smiled to himself. He knew that his superior, Mr O’Brien, at the Gestapo would also like the title. O’Brien avidly read the transcripts that came through to him, and would not permit Blair’s arrest until the book was finished. O’Brien told Charrington that he liked to think that one of the characters, a Gestapo officer named ‘Jones’ was based upon himself.

Charrington also liked reading the book, fascinated as he was with how it would all turn out. Of course, once they killed Blair, they would publish the book, under an invented name and change the entire setting to the United States, with the novel concluding with a successful German liberation of Pacifica and the chief protagonist Winston Smith being freed from his slavery in Boston.

The gloomy interior of the back room suddenly became very bright and both men were momentarily illuminated in the eerie dazzle. In that moment, Blair looked directly into the face of the shopkeeper, and could for the first time see quite clearly that the man was wearing theatrical make up, and he was clearly much younger than his claimed 65 years. Eric Blair didn’t have time to contemplate what this meant, as they heard the scream from inside the shop itself, the young out of work Welsh actor, who never did get the chance to use his preferred stage name of ‘Richard Burton’ crying out in alarm “my eyes!”.

Just seconds later, the shop imploded from the centre and was buried under mountains of rubble from nearby buildings.

Inside the Gestapo headquarters at the former New Scotland Yard building, pages of manuscripts burst instantly into flame, as the turncoat Gestapo Agent, O’Brien ran screaming from his office, his skin blackening and melting from his face.

OTL
George Orwell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell
O'Brien / Richard Burton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Brien_(Nineteen_Eighty-Four)
Charrington
https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/what-different-about-mr-charrington-what-horrible-442862
 
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Interesting that means one Ms Taylor will be even more of a loose cannon. What I like particularly is that unlike many, many other timelines, the 'stupid pills' appear to have been shared around a bit more equally. The US still has a chance of prevailing, as I read it a small one, but still a chance.

In the meantime what has happened to Johan?
 
Interesting that means one Ms Taylor will be even more of a loose cannon. What I like particularly is that unlike many, many other timelines, the 'stupid pills' appear to have been shared around a bit more equally. The US still has a chance of prevailing, as I read it a small one, but still a chance.

In the meantime what has happened to Johan?


thanks Tim.

we will be returning soon to John, Sheila, McKendry, Oliver and Maria to see how this pans out. This will inevitably have flashbacks to both McKendrys encounter with Dr Blome and the stranger who observed Johans homecoming.

Unfortunately I am just too bogged down with my own position in the UK local elections, and then I have a break in the sun after that. Earliest completion date now looking like late June!
 
I think you meant Germania, Eastasia and Pacifica?

Hi mate,

Orwell is working on his book up until 1949. China, at that time was not emerging as a super power. He envisaged Germania and Pacifica as 2 of the obvious super powers, and perhaps saw an resurgent Russian type empire that would dominant much of Asia. He therefore chose the name Eurasia to describe the third empire. He didn't feel it would be based upon China, and therefore to say Eastasia would be geographically misleading. He predicted (as is the case for this TL) that China, SE Asia and India would be the lands were the 3 super powers engaged in perpetual war. The world map in Orwells head for for the book "1980" would look different from the one in OTL in the book "1984".

The reason for my inserting this side issue narrative was just to make clear that this is not a "how did we get to 1984" scenario, and as a tribute to those brilliant authors on this site who have done, or are doing that very scenario.
 
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