Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Franciscus Caesar, Aug 13, 2013.
Really looking forward to more. Kudos.
No, ITTL Venice is not focused on Italy just for the sake of prominence on the peninsula. The republic will focus on the pressing matters at hand, which are its economic struggles at the hands of the Portuguese and lands that will benefit it in the struggle. Any additional gains (be that in Italy or anywhere else) are just a bonus.
Glad to her it, thanks!
Consider me subscribed. I look forward to more.
Sorry all, looking back today I left a few questions unanswered.
I believe any lords appointed by Venice in Dalmatia, or existing lords of areas annexed in Tyrol and Istria, remain a count of sovereign rank, though they themselves are subordinated to the ruling class of Venice (The Doge, Council of 10). Formal Venetian mediatization will come in the next few decades.
I don't think anything here would stop the historical flow of events from happening to the Swiss Confederacy. The French and Milan, however, is something I haven't exactly figured out yet. It's becoming a pain actually.
I've been looking into Henry with the English invasions into northern France. Originally I was wrestling with the idea of him going to France earlier (as soon as English action starts) with his wife (Catherine), where the warmer climate (not by much) would allow her to give birth to a boy. However, I've sort of made it an unofficial rule of mine since joining the forum that I wouldn't change the sexes/number of children of OTL figures (I may be flexible on the number of children thing though).
Currently Mantova is in mostly Papal hands, as it took the place of OTL's Romagna as a means for the papacy to capture Ferrara. I think your Sienna idea may be the most likely choice, as you've stated.
These alliances are still shaky with a Venice that has become a problem for the major powers. Sometimes I forget how I've split part I in the original TL into over 13 parts in this rebooted edition, making the original premise obscured. As will be made more detailed in the coming parts, this TL will have a lot to do (at least for the next 2 decades) with the unlikely partnership of Venice and the Ottomans.
I found this forum, and this thread, whilst procrastigoogling some obscure info on Venetian history. Counterfactualism has always turned me on and this particular alternative history you're creating is fascinating. I had to join the forum just to subscribe, and tell you as much.
I am wondering about Venice-held territories outside of the Adriatic in your TL, the Peloponnese, Cyprus and so forth. Once your Ptolemaic channel is completed will Europe fall by the wayside entirely? The potential for Venetian expansion into the Red Sea and Indian Ocean is enormous, imagine if Venice exported it's unique take on town planning?! The idea of tropical Grand Canals being cut through the atolls and reef lagoons of the Seychelles and Maldives is too entertaining for me to stop thinking about!
Keep up this tremendous work!
Interesting. So Queen Catherine would have a higher chance, but she might not succeed as per OTL?
I admit, most of my curiosity stems from the fact that Spain's "Royal Madness" begins from around this time. The House of Trastamara was already known by that time to have used inbreeding to keep themselves in power (Ferdinand and Isabella were already related from birth), and Catherine's sister was none other than Joanna "The Mad" of Castille. Historians today know that she had a sort of mental disorder that was made worse by the position that she's in, and if England becomes an option for Trastamara Spain ITTL I can see a disruptive future where the recessive genes would cross over.
On the other hand, Queen Catherine could be different from the rest of her family ITTL (she was already controversial at the time by upholding women's education) and I could see her being a bit more open-minded when it comes to marriage, although that could still result in a Protestant England if she chose the wrong (or right?) spouse for her children.
I'm guessing due to this timeline's centering on Venice Charles "The Bewitched" would still be born here, regardless of changed history? Oh man, what would the Spanish War of Succession could have been if Venice was more more powerful like in this timeline!
Welcome to the forums! I came here almost a month ago from procrastinating on Google until I found a timeline about an Africa that came out better than OTL due to an industrial evolution before colonization. I hope you enjoy your time here!
Say, that's an interesting idea. A Venice with several island colonies would be much more involved the Indian Ocean trade, maybe even going so far as visiting Sumatra or the Malay Peninsula! If Venice could play it's cards right, it could have continued wealth and trade right up to the 18th century. Also, the possibility of it interacting with my home country of Malaysia would just be too cool!
Procrastigoogling will do that. I'm honoured you felt inclined to join the forum thanks to this thread. Enjoy your time here, it's a fun distraction.
Thanks! Currently outside the Adriatic, Venice controls the Kingdom of Candia (Crete), Cipro (Cyprus), the Ixole Jonie (Ionian Islands, with the exception of Lefkada, which is in Ottoman hands), and the city of Coron (Koroni), which is their last holding in the Peloponnese.
In terms of expansion outside the Med., well, you'll just have to keep reading! You may be very happy with where this TL goes.
While at the moment I don't see a reason for this not to happen, events of the next 20 years can possibly change Spain in a way that may see different events playing out.
As I said to Winstanley, you'll just have to wait and see! But with an effective use of the Ptolmeic Channel, the odds of La Serenissima encountering people from your native Malaysia are quite high ITTL.
Timeline looks good so far. I wonder whether Venice throwing its hat into the ring of oceanic navigation (those carracks, and the canal to the Red Sea and India) will improve those arts. Astronomy in particular was critical to the eventual development of a method of measuring longitude (though that would require rather complex mathematics)--perhaps the Venetians will see this, and the Republic will become a prime investor in that art.
Even if not, the routes of eastern and southern Asia were well-known to local navigators, so Venice should have no trouble piloting ships loaded with riches home from the spice islands.
I think with Venice learning the oceanic ropes we can see at least a few innovations introduces sooner ITTL. The Arsenale was the shrine of shipworks, and the Venetian drive towards efficient and high profit trade, along with many great minds in the republic can mean great things for the art.
Part 14, Mare Hadriaticum; Mare Nostrum
Late August: Members of the league meet at Mantua to discuss the situation in Italy, in particular the partition of territory acquired from the French. They quickly come to an agreement regarding Florence, which has angered Julius by allowing Louis to convene the Council of Pisa in its territory. At the Pope’s request, a Spanish army marches into Tuscany, smashes Florentine resistance, and overthrows the republic, installing Giuliano de’Medici as ruler of the city.
On the territory in question, fundamental disagreements quickly arise. Julius and the Duke of Urbino insists that Maximilian Sforza be permitted to keep the Duchy of Milan, but Emperor Maximilian and Ferdinand conspire instead to have one of their cousins installed as duke. The Pope also demands the immediate annexation of Ferrara to the Papal States, to which Ferdinand objects, desiring to see an independent Ferrara to counter Papal and Venetian powers in Italy.
September: Venetian ambassadors are back at the Ottoman court. They take up concern with the new Sultan about the Republic of Ragusa, which lies just south of Venice’s holdings in Dalmatia. Since the city passed into Ottoman protection in 1481, Ragusa has been a thorn in Venice’s Adriatic domination.
But for a tribute of 12,500 ducats, Ragusa is virtually independent. It can enter into relations with foreign powers, make treaties with them, and its ships sail under its own flag. Ottoman vassalage also confer special rights in trade that extend within the Empire, and Ragusa handles the Adriatic trade on behalf of the Ottomans, its merchants receiving special tax exemptions and trading benefits from the Porte.
With the recent agreement between Venice and the Empire, the ambassadors argue that while Ragusa remains independent and enjoys its current position with the Empire and against Venice, the benefits of the partnership cannot be realized in full. Venice has had many trade disputes with Ragusa in the past 30 years, and the ambassadors maintain that it is redundant for the Empire to have two nations for the same task.
Selim is uninterested in who gets the job of his Adriatic affairs, as long as they are done efficiently. He realizes that the Venetians are correct in that having two nations trying to do the same thing is damaging for the Empire, as they will no doubt continue to compete against each other for supremacy, hurting the effectiveness of trade. Seeing as Venice already shares a majority of the preferential rights Ragusa holds, Selim agrees to transfer Ragusa to Venice’s control. This move solidifies Venice’s place as the Ottoman’s primary ally in Europe.
October: Leonardo da Vinci’s notepad from last year’s trip to Lisbon has been analyzed by him and a multitude of Venetian engineers and shipwrights, which are considered to be the best in the world. As intended, while in Portugal da Vinci set foot on many Portuguese naus (i), and was able to take detailed notes of what he observed of them. The brilliant da Vinci records that the naus had 3 masts, with a rounded stern and a large aftcastle, forecastle, and bowspirit at the stern. He noted that foremast and mainmast were square-rigged, while the mizzenmast was lateen-rigged, giving the recognizable triangular shape of the boats. He also notes the dimensions he observed.
With drawings now completed after nearly a year of extensive design and redesign, da Vinci advises that the Arsenale begin work on transforming Venetian caravels into working models of the Portuguese nau, as it is the ship most common to what he saw. The Arsenale captains estimate that the first working models can be ready for sea trials in 8 months.
(i): Nau: Portuguese ocean-going carrack.
Hmm Ragusa. I think we'll be seeing some rebelliousness there in future
Yes, the relationship between the two was one of bitter dislike by the end of Venice's control of the republic ending in 1358. Since then, Ragusa has been able to grow into a respectable trade power. The current relationship may still not be a perfect one, but if Ragusan merchants find they can integrate their business into the republic and be treated as equals, hopefully it will do good for the relations.
Regardless of how bad Ragusan distaste for Venice is (and vice-versa), the conflict of interest with having 2 countries serving the exact same purpose was too great. Venice would naturally demand that their arch-rival in the Adriatic be put under their rule, and the Ottomans would naturally agree: Venice serves to many more purposes for the Empire, including ones that Ragusa could never dream of.
Oh I agree on the reason why the Ottomans have done it, it's just I can see Venetian Rule being rather nominal at times for the foreseeable future.
Part 15, As Italy Calms, the East Rages
March 9: To the relief of many, especially in Ferrara, Romagna, and Veneto, Pope Julius II passes away. Pope Leo X succeeds him as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church.
With Julius’ death, the Holy League is left without a leader. Leo is far less interested in military affairs.
March 23, 1513: In an attempt to save its Italian holdings, Louis implores Doge Loredan to pledge Venice’s support against the league. The two sign a treaty at Blois pledging to divide all of northern Italy between them.
Though Louis believes the Venetians accepted the alliance because of his deal alone, in reality it is thanks to the republic’s web of spies alerting the Doge that the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor conspire to once again invade it. The Doge, rather than wait for the onslaught, decides to go on the offensive.
May: French armies cross the Alps and advance on Milan; at the same time, Gian Paolo Baglioni and the Venetian army march west from Brescia (i). Bartolomeo d’Alviano waits at Padua with a large force behind him.
The unpopularity of Maximilian Sforza, seen by the Milanese as a puppet of the Swiss mercenaries, enables the French to move through Lombardy with little resistance. By late May the French and Venetians arrive in Milan, easily taking the city. The French head forward to besiege the remaining Swiss in Novara.
June 6: The Battle of Novarra ensues when a Swiss relief army attacks the French. Louis’ forces are routed.
In Venice, the first fleet of proto-carracks is ready to begin sea trials. Some will be tried in the Mediterranean, while others will be tried in the Red Sea itself. The Red Sea ships will sail to Alexandria, where they will be disassembled by Venetian shipwrights, and reassembled on the Red Sea coast (ii).
July: Detachments of the Swiss pursue Louis’ fleeing army over the Alps. The French are experiencing losses on all sides, with the English capturing Tournai in the north.
August: Sea trials of the Venetian carracks are completed in the Mediterranean. For the most part they are very similar to their Portuguese counter parts with da Vinci and his core of engineers working out the bumps. One thing for sure, it is evident that their use in the Mediterranean is not likely to usurp the necessity of galleys anytime soon, as the smaller ships are far more maneuverable in the calm sea. Results of the Red Sea tests are eagerly awaited.
September: With the French having fled to France, Baglioni is left unexpectedly without their support. He retreats east to Bergamo, where he meets the Spanish army. The Spanish are unable to capture the city in the face of determined Venetian resistance, and turn back towards Lombardy.
Early October: Baglioni, determined not to let the Spanish out of Venetian territory, pursues them and is badly defeated just south of Caravagio.
December: Louis XII and Loredan make peace with the Pope and Spain.
January, 1514: Fire breaks out in the Rialto of Venice. It destroys most of the buildings in the area.
February: Results of the Venetian carrack’s Red Sea trials are in. Unfortunately, the ships did not do as well as was intended. They were not nearly as fast against the wind as their Portuguese counterparts, and were seemingly far heavier. Revisions will be made immediately.
March: The Ottomans led by Selim march east to invade the Safavid Empire.
August 23: After braving the rough terrain of eastern Anatolia and the caucuses, and contending with the difficulties of supply lines thanks to the enemy’s scorched earth campaign, the Ottomans face the Safavids at Chaldiran. Here, nearly 100,000 Ottomans face off against 60,000 Safavids. The Ottoman use of artillery proves to be the winning factor, and the Safavids are decimated.
September: The Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt is weary of the news coming from Chaldiran. It fears that the expansionist policy of the Ottomans will soon arrive at its door. Relations between the two nations have long been adversarial, but especially in recent years with the Portuguese domination of the spice trade, they’ve been at each other’s throats in order to get a piece of the remaining action.
As the Mamluk state fears of war, its attention is turned towards its empty coffers. The effects of the Portuguese wrestling control of the spice trade have been disastrous, and any remaining Mamluk moneys have been invested into the Ptolmeic Channel. If the Sultanate is going to be able to pay for a war, it will have to search quickly for ways to cut costs and gain revenues somehow. With the profitable spice trade tied up, Egypt will have to try its hand at tapping other known sources of capital…
(i): OTL it was Bartolomeo d’Alviano moved west from Padua.
(ii): This is how Venetian ships participated in Diu IOTL.
Fun stuff, I'd like to say that your TL doesn't seem to suffer from the usual nation-specific wanking. Good job on the TL so far.
Thanks for noticing. Special care is taken to ensure I don't fall into that trap again (in the original version of this TL Venice by this point already wanked out and had large Balkan holdings). In this TL she will only claim lands that offer the financial incentive to do so, unless by way of necessity or war spoils.
I'm just trying to let the butterflies do the work.
Finally read the last few updates so far. Got to say, it's really splendid! I'll be looking forward to future updates.
I'd like to see Venice try to unite Italy (if possible) in TTL, if only to compare to RyuDrago's timeline Brothers of Italy (good TL, BTW).
Good updates so far, Franciscus Caesar.
Keep it up!!!
Good stuff, a Balkan Venice dilutes the "culture" of OTL Venice in my opinion. Not that it can't happen but I'd suspect that Venetians prefer Catholic Italians over Orthodox, Agnostic, Sunni residents of the Balkans. I honestly don't care for a larger Serene Republic since the allure was always the city and its inhabitants. Considering the number of military-based TLs on this site I would love to see something different; ie: make the Serene Republic the most prestigious nation in Europe, or make Venice the Bazaar of the World, and so on...
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