La Serenissima: Venice, Dawn of a New Power 2.0

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Franciscus Caesar, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    Attached is a map of Italy on June 6, 1508 after the truce between Venice and the Holy Roman Empire. Below that is the League of Cambrai's partition plan of Venice. Note that Milan is controlled by the French.

    **EDIT: As I have just found a map that better outlines Romagna, it is poignant to point out that the triangle formed in the pink region surrounded by 6,7,8, is also part of the Venetian Romagna (which I only included its borders clinging to the Adriatic). Recall that Venice gained these lands in the last war, after its lords were hostile to the Pope and submitted to the republic.

    Italy June 6 1508.png
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  2. Richter von Manthofen Gnome Fighter Ace

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    Thanks for the maps - Well you now have changed the world - Austri has lost Carinthia and a large part of Tirol. Either Venice has made an eternal enemy or Austria (Habsburgs) will abandon Italian plans and look elsewhere...
     
  3. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    Surely an enemy has been made of Venice by the Habsburgs after claiming such a large tract of their coveted Archduchy. With advancement into Italy looking tough right now, looking elsewhere at least for the immediate future seems like the only option.
     
  4. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    Part 12, The Republic is Secure, the Wealthy Celebrate

    January, 1510: Taking into account the defeats dealt to the Holy Roman Empire in this war, just as in the one fought immediately prior against Venice, and seeing Maximilian’s retreat back into northern Tyrol as a sign the Empire is soon to bow out of the conflict, Louis decides he does not want to be the only power fighting Venice in northern Italy. Especially if it means losing part of his Milanese territory just in order to aide Julius in his campaigns. With Venetian armies deep into Lombardia, and the prospect of help from the HRE seemingly nil, Louis decides to end France’s involvement in the conflict.

    The Venetians are also unwilling to keep fighting; fearing that continued aggression would lead to a full French invasion, and agree to the French settlement. France agrees to desist any further onslaught if Venetian troops leave the French-controlled Milanese lands. The two agree to the same pre-war borders.

    February: Maximilian of the Holy Roman Empire concedes to a similar agreement as the French. No lands lost, no lands gained.

    Pope Julius’ holy league is crumbling around him, as he finds himself back in the position he’s been in for the last several years: not possessing sufficient forces to fight the republic alone. With this, he officially ‘calls off’ the league, just to save face, and is forced to make peace with Venice.

    Though Venice is happy to sign a peace deal, the Pope will be made to pay for threatening the survival of St. Mark’s nation. In the peace settlement, the republic is allowed to keep her traditional power to appoint clergy in her territory, as well as maintain jurisdiction over all Papal subjects in Venice. In terms of Romagna, the cities that had prompted the war are to remain under Venetian rule, with the rest of Romagna falling under Venetian control. Further, the Papacy is made to pay reparations to cover Venice’s expenses in this venture. Venice is also relieved of her interdict.

    The issue of Romagna is one that enrages the Pope to the point of being bedridden, though Venetian officials take this as a theatrical show.

    March 16: Due to a bronze shortage thanks to the war, the casting of the Gran Cavallo was delayed several months. Today, however, is the day Gabriele Vendramin has been waiting on for years, as his great horse is finally finished. He now deliberates on where to place it. His intention to put it in St. Mark’s square was quickly turned down by public opposition. Vendramin wants to showcase his marvel to the world.

    Whereas the payoff in the completion of the Gran Cavallo is one of grandeur and adoration for Vendramin, for Leonardo the payoff is the literal meaning of the word. Finally finished, the elated Gabriele showers da Vinci with a sizeable payment for his work. The amount is mainly to ensure that da Vinci will not be hostile to working for him in future, and seemingly this works. Leonardo, a man of common standing, has become more and more obsessed with the grandeurs of the lagoon, aspiring to riches so that he too can dabble into the joys of the rich. Given his first taste of the better life, Leonardo is hooked, and it looks like he will get to enjoy it for a while; not wanting to be beaten by Vendramin’s horse, many of the republic’s leading families clamor to commission da Vinci into completing their next great piece of art.

    May: Julius takes two full months until begrudgingly; he finally signs the peace deal. Unbeknownst to anyone other than his closest advisors, Julius makes it clear upon signing that the terms are being agreed to and accepted under duress, and are therefore invalid. He swears to break them at the earliest opportunity (i).

    June: The French begin to fortify their Milanese-possession on Louis’ orders, fearing that Venice may be seeking revenge for the holy-league’s attempted invasion. Ferrara, France’s close ally, follows suit.

    When the Pope is alerted of this, he comes to realize the position he has put himself in. He fears the French buildup in Italy, and the more significantly problems it lends to his plans to annex the Duchy of Ferrara. Further, the only nation in Italy that can defend the peninsula from French aggression –Venice- has just concluded a hard fought war that he himself initiated. Julius proceeds to hire an army of Swiss mercenaries, who he orders to attack the French in Milan. He also invites Venice to ally with him against Louis, but to his anger the republic refuses the offer.

    In Venice, Loredan is appalled that the Pope, who had just called for a war that would end in the near complete partition of the republic, would now ask for its assistance against his former ally. He refuses to enter into another war that will result in a no gains being had just like that last one, and that if it isn’t France who threatens Italy, it will be the Pope. He’ll keep the devil he knows as head of Milan.

    July: A Papal attack on French-occupied Genoa fails.

    August: Famed religious painter, Fra Bartolomeo, moves to Venice where he is commissioned by the wealthy Barbaro family to design an altarpiece. With many noble families trying to outdo each other as patrons of the arts, the bringing in of many famed renaissance creators to the republic is becoming commonplace.

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    (i): This entire peace deal is just OTL’s peace reversed. OTL Venice was the one what signed this peace, and said it was done under duress, to break it at the earliest opportunity.
     
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  5. Al-numbers Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit new to the forums, but consider me subscribed to this timeline. A more powerful Venice is bound to be interesting! :D
     
  6. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    Awesome! Welcome to the forum. Oh it will definitely be interesting, hope you continue enjoying this TL :)
     
  7. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    Part 13,The Great Handshake: St. Mark and Osman

    August 17: A joint Papal-Urbino force captures Modena.

    Early September: With war still raging around it as the Papal States try to wrestle the mighty French out of Italy, Loredan knows that Venice will likely soon be embroiled in another struggle in the region. The success of the republic has left it an enemy of nearly every major power in Europe, who just last year attempted to wipe it off the map. Isolated, Venice’s leadership decides that if no friends are to be had in Europe, then she will look elsewhere for allies.

    September 16: Julius excommunicates Alfonso d’Este, Duke of Ferrara. The intense friction between the two stems from a debate over a license for a salt monopoly in the Papal States. Papal forces along with armies of the Duke of Urbino plan on taking Ferrara in the coming months. In anticipation of his coming victory, Julius heads to Modena so as to be nearby when the city falls (i).

    Early October: The French army marches unopposed into the heart of Italy and splits the Papal armies, stopping any action against Ferrara.

    December: A newly assembled Papal army conquers Concordia, and heads to Mirandola to besiege the city.

    January, 1511: Mirandola falls to Papal armies with the Pope himself at the helm of the assault. Despite the victory, the Pope suffers defeats at Concordia and Castelfranco as the French take back the cities. The Papal armies flee to Modena.

    June: Most of northern Duchy of Modena is in French hands. With the Papal armies disorganized and underpaid, French armies advance on Papal stronghold of Modena. In response to the debacle, Julius proclaims a league against France. The new alliance quickly grows to include not only Spain and the Holy Roman Empire (in hopes of seizing Navarre and Lombardy, respectively, from Louis), but also Henry VIII of England, who uses the occasion as an excuse to expand his holdings in northern France.

    August: With the complete severing of relations between Venice and Portugal before the Battle of Diu, the republic sends their chief military man Leonardo da Vinci and several other ambassadors to Lisbon to normalize relations between the countries. While in the capital, da Vinci is ordered to note all he can about the state-of-the-art multi-rigged Portuguese carracks and smaller fast caravels. He is to try and determine how the ships are built, and how they are able to shoot their powerful cannons. In an attempt to get better access to the ships in question, the whole affair is deemed one of a rekindling of friendship between the great seafaring nations, with many meetings and events being held in the ports and on ships (ii).

    November 1511: Treaty of Westminster –a pledge of mutual aid against the French- is signed between the English and Spanish.

    April 11, 1512: French and Ferrarese armies meet the Holy League’s Spanish and Papal armies at their stronghold of Modena. The battle is horrific, and ends with the French sacking the city. The Spanish forces in Italy are almost entirely destroyed.

    May 23: Selim I succeeds his father, Bayezid II, becoming the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. The new Sultan receives many lavish gifts from the Republic of Venice to curry favor with him early on in his reign.

    May 27: Julius and his newly hired army of Swiss mercenaries descend upon Milan, bringing with them Maximilian Sforza. To intercept the threat, French forces abandon the recently acquired Modena.

    June: A group of Venetian ambassadors meet with Selim in Constantinople. Here, in an attempt to further the good relations between the two nations, they offer the Ottomans preferential trade status, along with special privileges for Ottomans in the republic, in return for reciprocation of the deal. These include preferential treatment for carrying trade, the right for each of the peoples dwelling in the opposite nation to be judged by their own laws, the right to maintain existing churches/mosques, and more representatives in key locations, to ensure quick and efficient lines of communication between the two nations. Selim, who possesses expansionist views towards his southern and eastern borders, accepts the deal, primarily for the monetary component, as well as the belief that having Venice as a close ally would act as a buffer to any European shenanigans.

    July: With the French having abandoned the city, the Duke of Urbino quickly recaptures Modena.

    August: The Papal-Swiss army forces the small French detachment out of Milan, allowing Sforza to be proclaimed Duke with their support.

    Despite their success earlier in the year, the remaining French forces withdraw entirely from northern Italy in order to fend off English advances in northern France.

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    (i): OTL Julius heads to Bologna to be near when Ferrara is defeated. ITTL Venice controls Romagna, as stated in the peace treaty. TTL the war is fought over the Duchy of Modena rather than Romagna, as the Pope shifts his conquests.

    (ii): The republic is feeling the harsh impact of the Portuguese impact on the spice trade. Just as IOTL, Venice has authorized “rapid and secret remedies to be taken against the Portuguese”.
     
  8. Irene Professional Cactus

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    Interesting, it's worth noting that the Portuguese did not invent the nau so they could explore the Atlantic but that nau was created to better navigate West Africa after it's discovery. Similarly Venice could probably invent a sea-faring vessel given the desire to do so and a predecessor to copy from. That being said it would be dependent on having two fleets; one for the Mediterranean and one for the Ocean which would be interesting to say the least. (or they could just try to get by with an ocean based fleet to compensate for the Mediterranean, as the opposite doesn't really work out)
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  9. Alex Richards A mapper I, from near Dar-bai. Donor

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    Finally caught up on this. Looking wonderful so far, lots of interesting elements going in. Some thoughts:

    - I wonder if the major effect of the completion of the Gran Cavallo is that it gives Leonardo more money to spend on indulging his interests in obscure inventions...

    -Are we looking at a pretty much OTL deal for the Swiss here- Vallentina and Trentino to the Confederation but the French end up staying in charge of Milan? If not, an earlier bad defeat for the Swiss in Italy could lead to a butterflying away of the later conquest of the Pays de Vaud in 1536, leaving Switzerland as a much more German nation.
     
  10. Al-numbers Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful update. I can't help but imagine every monarch in Europe going "Augh, again?" when they hear of Julius's League. I wonder what would happen if the Pope would try to do it only to have no one answer the call. :D

    On another note, is King Henry VIII going to marry Mary Tudor in this timeline? And if so, will she be able to conceive a boy instead of a girl? Besides that, will King Henry be where the action is in northern France? If so, is there a chance of him being injured or not while he's there?
     
  11. Fox-Fire I've jumped into the fire.

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    New to the Forums, this is my first post and it is to anounce my subscription to this thread. I'm really enyoing this TL and love Venice as a city and admire it as a state. Iv'e been there and travelled half of europe and I can say it's one of the most beautiful places on the planet, that's what made me regain my interest in startegy games, lead to EUIII and then to here. I would like to help with as much as I can :D
     
  12. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    The Red Sea will be Venice's equivalent of West Africa in the case you made. It will be their proving grounds for any new ship design. Yes, if/when a feasible Venetian oceangoing vessel is created, two fleets (Mediterranean and Oceanic) will be a must.

    Glad to have you back! Should be fun to see what conclusions if any you draw with the rebooted TL with your knowledge of the original. You're bang on about what the increased funds will allow da Vinci to do. Keep in mind that he's a man with a craving for the good life and, being in Venice for so long (the center of opulence), he's being tantalized daily. This is a Leonardo already very different from OTL's da Vinci, how "obscure" an invention(s) will he be willing to design given the right incentive...

    Hah, I thought the same writing it tbh! It seems like a Holy League is as common as a Tuesday. Italy is proving a far harder prize to claim here than OTL, so you maybe right; One day he may call but no one will answer (well, except maybe Spain :rolleyes:)

    I'm honoured to have your first post and your subscription, thanks! I agree with you, since my first visit to Venezia I've been so interested with the city and its history. When I first came across this forum I knew a Venice TL was a must.
     
  13. Alex Richards A mapper I, from near Dar-bai. Donor

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    Nice to be back, though I must admit my memory of the original is a little hazy after so long.

    Still, main point of reference I can think of is the much more restrained territorial gains for La Serenissima at this early stage. Which is welcome as the large gains in Croatia and Bosnia were somewhat excessive in retrospect.

    Also, apparently I was going through a Times New Roman phase at that point
     
  14. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    That was the first glaring error I found when reading the original. Looking back the claiming of Croatia and Bosnia was way too ASB, that war won't happen here.

    It seems you've dumped the Times New Roman and I've acquired the use of Garamond. Time changes us all.
     
  15. Fox-Fire I've jumped into the fire.

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    There are two ugly blotches of blue in that map, one south of Dalmatia and one south of Tyrol...
     
  16. Franciscus Caesar Caesar of Greater Toronto

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    They aren't too becoming. Are you saying they'd look better in light green?

    One of those blotched will likely make an appearance very soon.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  17. Alex Richards A mapper I, from near Dar-bai. Donor

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    It returns occasionally for TL posts and indeed it does.
     
  18. Fox-Fire I've jumped into the fire.

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    I'm saying they should not be there ;)

    Also you reminded me: what about the lords the venetians appointed in Dalmatia? Also, what about the ecclesiastical mini-states absorbed into the Republic on the north and those pieces of land previously administered by the chuch? Is it too early for a venetian mediatization?
     
  19. RyuDrago Italian? Yes, but also Roman

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    Finally catching the last updates, I like them. But I guess Venice should start to look allies in Italy first. I think Venice could have high chances with Siena, in anti-Florentine key; Mantova, could be used as bastion towards Milan and Ferrara. Savoy for now is too tied with France, and Genova will die before to make a pact with Venice. Florence, could be quite the choice, but if conquest Siena could be a thorn later...

    Outside Italy... France could agree to ally with Venice in anti-Papacy and anti-Spanish key, but also Charles V could promote a cooperation with Venice in exchange of the renounce to the lost Austrian lands, saying he is different from Maximilian...
     
  20. Fox-Fire I've jumped into the fire.

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    Oh!, the first time I dind't caught your message about colors, silly me. They will look better I think if your Venice does not plan on focussing only in the italian peninsula. IMHO the whole peninsula is not necessary, with padania is enough.