La Guillotine Permanente: A French Revolutionary Timeline
- Thread starter Xekimus
- Start date
Napoleon maintains good ties with Robespierre and his entourage. Besides, Napoleon above all puts order and discipline.
I do wonder about the future of this timeline. It's looking like the Jacobins will remain in power in France for at least the next 30 years, and definitely spread Republican ideals to other countries. I wonder what they will do once peace finally dawns- and how many ideas will show up on the world stage early. Kant's likely writing Perpetual Peace right now, the origin of many ideas which were finally realized(for not that long) with the League of Nations, over a century later. I presume France and its sister republics will have an organization for cooperation and which establishes some common rules. For instance, a Fraternity of Nations?
xiru misionero
Banned
As long as the jacobins manage to create a stable government, he'll be on their side.
@chickeness if there were a sincere want to create new republican government by the parisian government instead of just expanding france itself, we could see interesting developments... the cities of the rhine united, maybe the revolution sweeping thru the city cantons of switzerland along with a stern warning from the french to the rural cantons not to intervene... let's not even mention the usual suspects of the netherlands and north italy
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French foreign policy would be, according to a book I’m reading, be about returning to French tradition. Their natural enemy is England, their allies the smaller powers, and the Ottomans their “natural and useful ally”. Robespierre’s policy, which seemed to be shared by a majority of the committee, was about ending the war to prevent the rise of a military strongman, so a general offensive is probably gonna be on the cards, especially if Augustin’s buddy’s suggestion gets picked up.
Im kinda curious about the fate of Paine here tbh. If robespierre can convince paine that he wasn't behind his arrest would paine be able to reconcile with the jacobin regime despite his girondist politics?
Chapter 5: The War in 1794
Chapter 5
The War in 1794
"It is only those who take part in the battles who win them, and it is only the people in power that profit from them; what we should do is praise the victories, and be forgetful of ourselves.... They announced the victory of Fleurus, whilst others, who had been present, said nothing; they reported on the sieges, whilst others, who said nothing, had been there, in the trenches.”
Louis Antoine de Saint-Just, 1794
Despite the chaotic political situation in Paris, the French armies had gone from strength to strength. Following the Battle of Fleurus, the Coalition forces had almost completely abandoned the Austrian Netherlands to the French. In fact, French forces marched into Liège on 9 Thermidor. This, combined with the almost total victory against counter-revolutionary armies in France [1], left the revolutionary government in a position it had never found itself in before.
The military reforms that had purged the nobility and opened up access to higher ranks for commoners had resulted in an initial military disaster for France, as it lacked experienced officers due to many of them fleeing the country. This situation was rectified by rapid battlefield promotions, and by years I to II [2], fortunes had changed dramatically. This was due to the many brilliant men who had been stifled by the previous aristocratic order, which had forbidden them from reaching their true heights but now were at the highest levels of command. This resulted in France having a significant advantage in terms of military leadership.
France however, lacked a truly coherent foreign policy. Under Robespierre, the only objective had been survival against the Coalition forces. As this objective was now achieved, Saint-Just saw the need to rectify this lack of vision. As previously France was facing existential threats within its borders there was no need to think beyond the immediate situation regarding an overall strategy. As all armies had now been expelled from French territory, the government could now afford the luxury of planning for an end to the war. Saint-Just decided on the optimal strategy for France, he deemed its borders at the Alps and the Pyrenees sufficient for the time being and decided to focus its attention to the north. France would only be truly secure once it secured the formation of sister republics in the Netherlands, and the Rhineland, Saint-Just concluded, and Carnot agreed. Previously attempted negotiations with foreign powers at war with France were chaotic, as French negotiators kept getting replaced for partisan reasons and lacked true guidance from the revolutionary government in Paris. In the future, France had to seek consistent and achievable goals in order to properly negotiate with other European powers and acquire recognition.
The overall strategy could therefore be summed up as defending the south and attacking the north. While Saint-Just had taken Robespierre's words to heart that 'nobody loves armed missionaries,’ he still believed it was the duty of France to serve as the great protector of revolutionary movements in Europe. In particular, the Netherlands was a hotbed of revolutionary activity, and it was believed that French armies only had to march into the heartland for the people to throw off their oppressors and embrace their liberators. This would have to wait until winter, however once the nearly impregnable rivers on the Dutch border had frozen over.
The Rhine also presented a unique opportunity, as a large uprising in Poland had erupted in the spring and was now diverting a sizable number of Prussian forces away from France. If this opportunity could be properly exploited, then it could see the collapse of the Coalition forces in the Rhine and potentially put a close to the front itself. Saint-Just and Carnot saw to the formation of two new armies; the Army of the Rhine and Moselle as well as the Army of the Sambre and Meuse. Commanded by Jean-Baptiste Jourdan, a veteran of Fleurus, and Lazare Hoche, a veteran of previous clashes in the Rhine, respectively. Hoche had incidentally been arrested a few months prior due to personal animosity with Saint-Just, but was released on behalf of the more moderate members of the Committee of Public Safety, who deemed all true republican officers necessary for the battles ahead. Saint-Just conceded to their argument and put aside his personal feelings lest they jeopardize the security of the Republic.
The front that was considered by everyone, (including Saint-Just) to be a sideshow and not worthy of much attention was that of Italy. The Army of Italy had recently been successful in an offensive action at Saorge, which had successfully captured the mountain passes that led to the heartland of the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont. Although their requests for further reinforcements and permission for further offensives were initially denied by Carnot, these requests were eventually granted due to Augustin Robespierre, thanks to his sizable influence in the government. This was at the behest of one of the commanders of the army, General Napoleon Bonaparte. Bonaparte was a firm Jacobin and loyal Robespierre supporter who had risen to fame following his actions during the Siege of Toulon. He had the good fortune to have made the acquaintance of the younger brother of The Incorruptible himself, giving him a friendly ear in the government. Owing to his political connections, Bonaparte was chosen to lead the Army of Italy over Kellerman [3], who, while an excellent administrator, was rather cautious by nature. He was transferred to the Rhine, where his administrative skills could be put to better use in the formation of the new armies. Kellerman's strategy was one of caution and maintenance of the defensive positions that had been gained at Saorge. Bonaparte was not of the same persuasion.
Bonaparte favored offense and noticed an extremely promising development. In the aftermath of Saorge, Piedmontese forces were assigned to defend the paths to the mountain passes, while Austrian forces were assigned to defend Nice. Bonaparte saw this as a golden opportunity to not just shatter the Piedmontese forces but potentially force the exit of the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont from the war altogether and therefore open up the Po valley to French attack. Bonaparte saw the Piedmontese as the obvious weak link in the forces of the Coalition and knew that if he could separate the Austrians and the Piedmontese, victory would be assured. However, it was a bold plan, as he was outnumbered by more than 10,000 men. He knew that any victory would only come if he effectively concentrated his forces while the Coalition remained complacent in keeping their forces divided among their fortified positions on the border.
Having received support from the Committee of Public Safety, he began preparing his assault on Piedmont. The Army of Italy was scattered along the Alpine forts, but Bonaparte made the risky decision to concentrate all of them at one point to decisively crush the Piedmontese. On 3 Fructidor [4], he ordered his forces to advance, with the vanguard led by General Masséna, towards the town of Cuneo. The town was held by Piedmontese forces, and Bonaparte knew that capturing it would be a significant victory, as it would open the way to the rest of Piedmont. Cuneo was heavily fortified with walls and towers that provided a good defensive position for the Piedmontese. Bonaparte was aware that a direct assault would be costly, so he decided to adopt a more indirect approach. He ordered Masséna to lead a feint attack on the walls, while he led his forces to bypass the town and head towards the hills to the north.
The Piedmontese forces, seeing the French attacking the walls, concentrated their forces on that part of the town, leaving the surrounding areas undermanned. It was only after they had withdrawn that they realized that they had fallen for Bonaparte's ruse and that the French were actually focusing their forces on the hills to the north. Bonaparte's men quickly climbed the hills, surprising the Piedmontese troops stationed there. His troops engaged the Piedmontese in a fierce battle, and after a short but intense fight, they emerged victorious. Using his elevated position on the hills, Bonaparte ordered his artillery to fire on the defenders below, forcing the Piedmontese to surrender. The surrender at Cuneo opened a large gap in the Piedmontese front line, which Bonaparte gleefully exploited. As Bonaparte ordered his troops to advance further into Piedmont, they met with little resistance, as the Piedmontese troops were scattered and disorganized. In a matter of days, the French captured several towns and fortresses in Piedmont, including Mondovì and Fossano, and threatened to sever the Piedmontese forces from the Austrian army. The success of the initial assault on Piedmont was a significant victory for Bonaparte and the French forces. It allowed them to establish a strong foothold in the region, and set the stage for the next phase of Bonaparte's plan: to completely isolate the Austrians and Piedmontese armies from each other.
With Mondovì, Cuneo, and Fossano under their control, the French created a large gap in the Piedmontese front line. The Austrian commander General de Vins faced a difficult decision. He could either abandon the Piedmontese and retreat to the east or he could risk being cut off by the French and fight a desperate battle to break through their lines.
De Vins chose the latter option and ordered his forces to launch a counter-attack against the French. He decided to attack Mondovì and considered seeking aid from the Piedmontese, but time was of the essence and he feared he would be unable to prevent an assault from both the west (from any French forces lurking beyond the Alps) and the north (From Bonaparte) should it come to it. If he could catch Bonaparte off guard at Mondovì, he reasoned that he could reconnect with the Piedmontese and drive the French back across the Alps. The Austrian forces were tired and ragged by the time they reached Mondovì on 1 Vendémiaire, at the beginning of Year III [5], as they had force marched their way there. General de Vins ordered his forces to attack the French and they began to move toward the French lines in a chaotic and uncoordinated manner. However, the French forces were well prepared for the assault and had already taken up defensive positions. The massed French artillery opened fire on the Austrian forces, causing chaos and confusion among their ranks. The Austrian infantry, caught in the open, were easy targets for French musketeers. The Austrian cavalry, attempting to support their infantry, charged the French lines but were met with a hail of gunfire, causing them to retreat in disarray.
Bonaparte saw the Austrian assault as an opportunity to launch a counterattack of his own. He ordered his troops to advance toward the Austrian lines, taking advantage of their disorganized state. The French infantry charged the Austrians by firing their muskets and fixing their bayonets. The French artillery provided support, bombarding Austrian positions with the hail of cannon fire. The French counteroffensive quickly gained momentum and the Austrians were soon in full retreat. The French pursued them relentlessly, cutting down many of their soldiers and capturing several cannons and standards. The Austrians, who were unable to regroup, continued to retreat in disarray.
Bonaparte's forces had successfully repelled the Austrian counterattack and launched a successful counteroffensive, inflicting heavy casualties on the Austrians and capturing several important positions. French morale was at an all-time high, and they were now poised to march on the capital of Piedmont, Turin. These victories had a significant impact on the morale of both Austrian and Piedmontese forces. Piedmontese troops, who had previously suffered significant losses, were now demoralized and disorganized. Many soldiers deserted, and the Piedmontese army began to disintegrate. On the other hand, Austrian troops were forced to retreat further east as the French continued to advance. Bonaparte had shown the merits of defending France from Coalition armies, not with defensive operations on the Alps, but through offensive campaigning into Italy itself. When Bonaparte took command of the Army of Italy, they were 42,000 poorly equipped, poorly clad, and underpaid men scattered across the Alpine forts (although his enemies were not much better off), yet they achieved stunning success. Bonaparte promised the Committee of Public Safety that with more men at his disposal, all of the Po Valley would fall to France. His requests were promptly granted, as whatever forces that were not currently preoccupied or destined for the Rhine were sent to Italy. Also as a response to the rapidly developing situation, Deputy Le Bas of the Committee of Public Safety was dispatched to the Army of Italy as representative on mission.
Napoleon Bonaparte
In the Rhine, to prepare for the upcoming offensive, the French worked to consolidate their forces and establish supply lines to support their troops. The logistics of moving large numbers of soldiers and equipment was a major concern and required careful planning and coordination. The soldiers themselves had to be properly trained and equipped for the upcoming battles. Recruits were brought in and trained, whereas existing troops were given time to rest and recover from their previous engagements. Supplies of gunpowder, cartridges, and food equipment were stockpiled, and plans were made to ensure steady resupply during the campaign. Leadership was also a critical factor in the success of the offensive. Experienced generals were appointed to the armies, with Kellermann brought in to assist in preparations for the offensive. Tens of thousands of soldiers were reallocated to the Rhine from inactive fronts, forming the bulk of the new armies.
Overall, preparations for the offensive in the Rhine were a massive undertaking, requiring the coordination of troops, supplies, and leadership across France. The success of the campaign would hinge on the effectiveness of these preparations as well as the courage and skill of the soldiers who would fight in the coming battles. All participants were aware that success or failure would change everything. The entire offensive had but one goal, and it was not any capture of territory or to seize control of some strategic forts, but to knock out the Kingdom of Prussia from the war entirely in one swift stroke.
[1]: The only active remaining counter-revolutionary rebels were in the Véndee, where sporadic fighting still occured.
[2]: 1793-1794.
[3]: The official reason for Bonaparte's promotion was that he had planned the success at Saorge.
[4] 20th of August, 1794.
[5] 22nd of September, 1794.
The War in 1794
"It is only those who take part in the battles who win them, and it is only the people in power that profit from them; what we should do is praise the victories, and be forgetful of ourselves.... They announced the victory of Fleurus, whilst others, who had been present, said nothing; they reported on the sieges, whilst others, who said nothing, had been there, in the trenches.”
Louis Antoine de Saint-Just, 1794
Despite the chaotic political situation in Paris, the French armies had gone from strength to strength. Following the Battle of Fleurus, the Coalition forces had almost completely abandoned the Austrian Netherlands to the French. In fact, French forces marched into Liège on 9 Thermidor. This, combined with the almost total victory against counter-revolutionary armies in France [1], left the revolutionary government in a position it had never found itself in before.
The military reforms that had purged the nobility and opened up access to higher ranks for commoners had resulted in an initial military disaster for France, as it lacked experienced officers due to many of them fleeing the country. This situation was rectified by rapid battlefield promotions, and by years I to II [2], fortunes had changed dramatically. This was due to the many brilliant men who had been stifled by the previous aristocratic order, which had forbidden them from reaching their true heights but now were at the highest levels of command. This resulted in France having a significant advantage in terms of military leadership.
France however, lacked a truly coherent foreign policy. Under Robespierre, the only objective had been survival against the Coalition forces. As this objective was now achieved, Saint-Just saw the need to rectify this lack of vision. As previously France was facing existential threats within its borders there was no need to think beyond the immediate situation regarding an overall strategy. As all armies had now been expelled from French territory, the government could now afford the luxury of planning for an end to the war. Saint-Just decided on the optimal strategy for France, he deemed its borders at the Alps and the Pyrenees sufficient for the time being and decided to focus its attention to the north. France would only be truly secure once it secured the formation of sister republics in the Netherlands, and the Rhineland, Saint-Just concluded, and Carnot agreed. Previously attempted negotiations with foreign powers at war with France were chaotic, as French negotiators kept getting replaced for partisan reasons and lacked true guidance from the revolutionary government in Paris. In the future, France had to seek consistent and achievable goals in order to properly negotiate with other European powers and acquire recognition.
The overall strategy could therefore be summed up as defending the south and attacking the north. While Saint-Just had taken Robespierre's words to heart that 'nobody loves armed missionaries,’ he still believed it was the duty of France to serve as the great protector of revolutionary movements in Europe. In particular, the Netherlands was a hotbed of revolutionary activity, and it was believed that French armies only had to march into the heartland for the people to throw off their oppressors and embrace their liberators. This would have to wait until winter, however once the nearly impregnable rivers on the Dutch border had frozen over.
The Rhine also presented a unique opportunity, as a large uprising in Poland had erupted in the spring and was now diverting a sizable number of Prussian forces away from France. If this opportunity could be properly exploited, then it could see the collapse of the Coalition forces in the Rhine and potentially put a close to the front itself. Saint-Just and Carnot saw to the formation of two new armies; the Army of the Rhine and Moselle as well as the Army of the Sambre and Meuse. Commanded by Jean-Baptiste Jourdan, a veteran of Fleurus, and Lazare Hoche, a veteran of previous clashes in the Rhine, respectively. Hoche had incidentally been arrested a few months prior due to personal animosity with Saint-Just, but was released on behalf of the more moderate members of the Committee of Public Safety, who deemed all true republican officers necessary for the battles ahead. Saint-Just conceded to their argument and put aside his personal feelings lest they jeopardize the security of the Republic.
The front that was considered by everyone, (including Saint-Just) to be a sideshow and not worthy of much attention was that of Italy. The Army of Italy had recently been successful in an offensive action at Saorge, which had successfully captured the mountain passes that led to the heartland of the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont. Although their requests for further reinforcements and permission for further offensives were initially denied by Carnot, these requests were eventually granted due to Augustin Robespierre, thanks to his sizable influence in the government. This was at the behest of one of the commanders of the army, General Napoleon Bonaparte. Bonaparte was a firm Jacobin and loyal Robespierre supporter who had risen to fame following his actions during the Siege of Toulon. He had the good fortune to have made the acquaintance of the younger brother of The Incorruptible himself, giving him a friendly ear in the government. Owing to his political connections, Bonaparte was chosen to lead the Army of Italy over Kellerman [3], who, while an excellent administrator, was rather cautious by nature. He was transferred to the Rhine, where his administrative skills could be put to better use in the formation of the new armies. Kellerman's strategy was one of caution and maintenance of the defensive positions that had been gained at Saorge. Bonaparte was not of the same persuasion.
Bonaparte favored offense and noticed an extremely promising development. In the aftermath of Saorge, Piedmontese forces were assigned to defend the paths to the mountain passes, while Austrian forces were assigned to defend Nice. Bonaparte saw this as a golden opportunity to not just shatter the Piedmontese forces but potentially force the exit of the Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont from the war altogether and therefore open up the Po valley to French attack. Bonaparte saw the Piedmontese as the obvious weak link in the forces of the Coalition and knew that if he could separate the Austrians and the Piedmontese, victory would be assured. However, it was a bold plan, as he was outnumbered by more than 10,000 men. He knew that any victory would only come if he effectively concentrated his forces while the Coalition remained complacent in keeping their forces divided among their fortified positions on the border.
Having received support from the Committee of Public Safety, he began preparing his assault on Piedmont. The Army of Italy was scattered along the Alpine forts, but Bonaparte made the risky decision to concentrate all of them at one point to decisively crush the Piedmontese. On 3 Fructidor [4], he ordered his forces to advance, with the vanguard led by General Masséna, towards the town of Cuneo. The town was held by Piedmontese forces, and Bonaparte knew that capturing it would be a significant victory, as it would open the way to the rest of Piedmont. Cuneo was heavily fortified with walls and towers that provided a good defensive position for the Piedmontese. Bonaparte was aware that a direct assault would be costly, so he decided to adopt a more indirect approach. He ordered Masséna to lead a feint attack on the walls, while he led his forces to bypass the town and head towards the hills to the north.
The Piedmontese forces, seeing the French attacking the walls, concentrated their forces on that part of the town, leaving the surrounding areas undermanned. It was only after they had withdrawn that they realized that they had fallen for Bonaparte's ruse and that the French were actually focusing their forces on the hills to the north. Bonaparte's men quickly climbed the hills, surprising the Piedmontese troops stationed there. His troops engaged the Piedmontese in a fierce battle, and after a short but intense fight, they emerged victorious. Using his elevated position on the hills, Bonaparte ordered his artillery to fire on the defenders below, forcing the Piedmontese to surrender. The surrender at Cuneo opened a large gap in the Piedmontese front line, which Bonaparte gleefully exploited. As Bonaparte ordered his troops to advance further into Piedmont, they met with little resistance, as the Piedmontese troops were scattered and disorganized. In a matter of days, the French captured several towns and fortresses in Piedmont, including Mondovì and Fossano, and threatened to sever the Piedmontese forces from the Austrian army. The success of the initial assault on Piedmont was a significant victory for Bonaparte and the French forces. It allowed them to establish a strong foothold in the region, and set the stage for the next phase of Bonaparte's plan: to completely isolate the Austrians and Piedmontese armies from each other.
With Mondovì, Cuneo, and Fossano under their control, the French created a large gap in the Piedmontese front line. The Austrian commander General de Vins faced a difficult decision. He could either abandon the Piedmontese and retreat to the east or he could risk being cut off by the French and fight a desperate battle to break through their lines.
De Vins chose the latter option and ordered his forces to launch a counter-attack against the French. He decided to attack Mondovì and considered seeking aid from the Piedmontese, but time was of the essence and he feared he would be unable to prevent an assault from both the west (from any French forces lurking beyond the Alps) and the north (From Bonaparte) should it come to it. If he could catch Bonaparte off guard at Mondovì, he reasoned that he could reconnect with the Piedmontese and drive the French back across the Alps. The Austrian forces were tired and ragged by the time they reached Mondovì on 1 Vendémiaire, at the beginning of Year III [5], as they had force marched their way there. General de Vins ordered his forces to attack the French and they began to move toward the French lines in a chaotic and uncoordinated manner. However, the French forces were well prepared for the assault and had already taken up defensive positions. The massed French artillery opened fire on the Austrian forces, causing chaos and confusion among their ranks. The Austrian infantry, caught in the open, were easy targets for French musketeers. The Austrian cavalry, attempting to support their infantry, charged the French lines but were met with a hail of gunfire, causing them to retreat in disarray.
Bonaparte saw the Austrian assault as an opportunity to launch a counterattack of his own. He ordered his troops to advance toward the Austrian lines, taking advantage of their disorganized state. The French infantry charged the Austrians by firing their muskets and fixing their bayonets. The French artillery provided support, bombarding Austrian positions with the hail of cannon fire. The French counteroffensive quickly gained momentum and the Austrians were soon in full retreat. The French pursued them relentlessly, cutting down many of their soldiers and capturing several cannons and standards. The Austrians, who were unable to regroup, continued to retreat in disarray.
Bonaparte's forces had successfully repelled the Austrian counterattack and launched a successful counteroffensive, inflicting heavy casualties on the Austrians and capturing several important positions. French morale was at an all-time high, and they were now poised to march on the capital of Piedmont, Turin. These victories had a significant impact on the morale of both Austrian and Piedmontese forces. Piedmontese troops, who had previously suffered significant losses, were now demoralized and disorganized. Many soldiers deserted, and the Piedmontese army began to disintegrate. On the other hand, Austrian troops were forced to retreat further east as the French continued to advance. Bonaparte had shown the merits of defending France from Coalition armies, not with defensive operations on the Alps, but through offensive campaigning into Italy itself. When Bonaparte took command of the Army of Italy, they were 42,000 poorly equipped, poorly clad, and underpaid men scattered across the Alpine forts (although his enemies were not much better off), yet they achieved stunning success. Bonaparte promised the Committee of Public Safety that with more men at his disposal, all of the Po Valley would fall to France. His requests were promptly granted, as whatever forces that were not currently preoccupied or destined for the Rhine were sent to Italy. Also as a response to the rapidly developing situation, Deputy Le Bas of the Committee of Public Safety was dispatched to the Army of Italy as representative on mission.
Napoleon Bonaparte
In the Rhine, to prepare for the upcoming offensive, the French worked to consolidate their forces and establish supply lines to support their troops. The logistics of moving large numbers of soldiers and equipment was a major concern and required careful planning and coordination. The soldiers themselves had to be properly trained and equipped for the upcoming battles. Recruits were brought in and trained, whereas existing troops were given time to rest and recover from their previous engagements. Supplies of gunpowder, cartridges, and food equipment were stockpiled, and plans were made to ensure steady resupply during the campaign. Leadership was also a critical factor in the success of the offensive. Experienced generals were appointed to the armies, with Kellermann brought in to assist in preparations for the offensive. Tens of thousands of soldiers were reallocated to the Rhine from inactive fronts, forming the bulk of the new armies.
Overall, preparations for the offensive in the Rhine were a massive undertaking, requiring the coordination of troops, supplies, and leadership across France. The success of the campaign would hinge on the effectiveness of these preparations as well as the courage and skill of the soldiers who would fight in the coming battles. All participants were aware that success or failure would change everything. The entire offensive had but one goal, and it was not any capture of territory or to seize control of some strategic forts, but to knock out the Kingdom of Prussia from the war entirely in one swift stroke.
[1]: The only active remaining counter-revolutionary rebels were in the Véndee, where sporadic fighting still occured.
[2]: 1793-1794.
[3]: The official reason for Bonaparte's promotion was that he had planned the success at Saorge.
[4] 20th of August, 1794.
[5] 22nd of September, 1794.
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I wonder will the 1796 attempted landing in Ireland go any better?
en.wikipedia.org
French expedition to Ireland (1796) - Wikipedia
Maybe, I mean what are the chances of a freak storm suddenly wrecking an invasion plan? Probably wont be led by Hoche TTL, he'll be busy with other matters.I wonder will the 1796 attempted landing in Ireland go any better?
French expedition to Ireland (1796) - Wikipedia
xiru misionero
Banned
More like the inverse, Good ol' Napo doesn't have to adapt to the lack of jacobin Rule.
Hopefully we can see the rise of very capable generals guided by a rational foreign policy and responsible civilian government, that can use the generals to create a ring of friendly republics around france, and prevent them from any follies that might backfire on them later such as picking fights anywhere beyond hamburg and the pyrinees (especially anywhere close to eastern europe, egypt or the levantine coast) for the coming ten, fifteen years, at the very least.
We need to raise our children in peace so that, when the right time comes, we'll have a gigantic revolutionary war machine full of fanatic vigor ready to dropkick the crowned heads of this planet into the dustbin of history where they deserve to be.
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So it is not too late for America. Right now, the United States is experiencing the events that will lead to the creation of the First Party system. Britain is seizing American merchant ships and impressing American merchant ships to put some pressure upon the US, aiming to give it a relatively good deal- but also align it to Britain. In OTL, the Jay Treaty, signed in November of 1794, solved some lingering border questions, and normalized relations between the US and Britain. However, it led to great polarization between the Federalists and Jeffersonians. The seizure of American merchant vessels led to voices talking about war with Britain, which was negotiated down to an embargo. However, the Vice President John Adams, in OTL, sunk the proposed embargo on Britain in the Senate, and in November the Jay Treaty was signed in London, pushing a full Federalist foreign policy.
This led to disorder, harassment of pro-Jay Treaty figures, and spurred the creation of the first political parties- and if they're not formalized in France, then these would be the first in the world. George Washington apparently lost the unaminous respect all Americans held towards him- allegedly there were political cartoons which circulated showing Washington being led to a guillotine. And then John Adams of the Federalists was elected in 1796 and then the Quasi-War happened. However, history could move down a different path. Perhaps the treaty will fall through, perhaps Jefferson will win the '96 election.
Thomas Jefferson is the best ally France could hope for at the moment. He admired the Jacobins, even under the worst of the Reign of Terror, more than the Directory- although I can't find the source I read that in right now. Only when Napoleon took over and abolished the Republic did he consider the French Revolution lost. He would join France in its wars, and while the USA certainly couldn't do much, it could definitely tie up Britain, at at the moment Spain, in North America- Britain having to choose whether to defend its possessions in North America, or its allies in Europe.
Of course, this marriage would certainly be a dysfunctional one- France's abolitionism vs large slave interests in the US, the Terror, and many more things. The important factors are that the USA go to war on the side of France against Britain, France becomes the USA's largest trading partner, and who knows? Maybe Jacobinism will find its way to American shores- Benjamin Franklin Bache, grandson of yes, that Franklin, runs a very Jacobin paper, and he definitely seems Presidential material. At least, if he is spared the fate he ended up with in OTL- beaten, arrested for sedition, and dying of yellow fever- likely brought on by stress and his injuries.
This led to disorder, harassment of pro-Jay Treaty figures, and spurred the creation of the first political parties- and if they're not formalized in France, then these would be the first in the world. George Washington apparently lost the unaminous respect all Americans held towards him- allegedly there were political cartoons which circulated showing Washington being led to a guillotine. And then John Adams of the Federalists was elected in 1796 and then the Quasi-War happened. However, history could move down a different path. Perhaps the treaty will fall through, perhaps Jefferson will win the '96 election.
Thomas Jefferson is the best ally France could hope for at the moment. He admired the Jacobins, even under the worst of the Reign of Terror, more than the Directory- although I can't find the source I read that in right now. Only when Napoleon took over and abolished the Republic did he consider the French Revolution lost. He would join France in its wars, and while the USA certainly couldn't do much, it could definitely tie up Britain, at at the moment Spain, in North America- Britain having to choose whether to defend its possessions in North America, or its allies in Europe.
Of course, this marriage would certainly be a dysfunctional one- France's abolitionism vs large slave interests in the US, the Terror, and many more things. The important factors are that the USA go to war on the side of France against Britain, France becomes the USA's largest trading partner, and who knows? Maybe Jacobinism will find its way to American shores- Benjamin Franklin Bache, grandson of yes, that Franklin, runs a very Jacobin paper, and he definitely seems Presidential material. At least, if he is spared the fate he ended up with in OTL- beaten, arrested for sedition, and dying of yellow fever- likely brought on by stress and his injuries.
This is very interesting! I'm not sure about the precise butterflies that would cause the Jay Treaty to fall through. Could greater French successes in Europe cause some US senators to see France as the 'winning side' and future hegemonic power? If the Coalition forces continue to get battered then Britain may seem like a power in deep decline, and not one worth assuaging. Thank you for bringing this up!
It happened twice in Japan when the Mongols tried to invade.
The kamikaze (Japanese: 神風, lit. 'divine wind') were two winds or storms that are said to have saved Japan from two Mongol fleets under Kublai Khan. These fleets attacked Japan in 1274 and again in 1281
Kamikaze (typhoon) - Wikipedia
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According to Wikipedia
So things were pretty darn close. Wikipedia also mentions that Jefferson and the Dem-Reps were embarrassed when the French ambassador publicly supported Jefferson and attacked the Federalists, and i imagine that it probably wouldn't take much for the British ambassador to have done the reverse instead and make the Federalists look to be too close to Britain.
So things were pretty darn close. Wikipedia also mentions that Jefferson and the Dem-Reps were embarrassed when the French ambassador publicly supported Jefferson and attacked the Federalists, and i imagine that it probably wouldn't take much for the British ambassador to have done the reverse instead and make the Federalists look to be too close to Britain.
Im not so sure he could. even if he personally wanted to he'd have to get congress, particularly the senate, on his side and that would be hard to do without more serious provocation from Britain.
Alternatively, maybe Spain could do something stupid while trying to negotiate the Spanish Florida border, starting a war to take Florida and Louisiana? Britain would try to support Spain at least financially, further souring American and British relations
xiru misionero
Banned
On the topic of spanish america, there's a good part of the people who fought on the side of the royalists that weren't as opposed as going without a king as they were as going without spain itself.
If we get some kind of franco spanish alliance that comes with an economic treaty with france plus netherlands, rhine and north italy we get an avenue of expansion that turns any european/anti british/anti russian adventure completely unnecessary. We get a huge consumer market for the manufactures of the free nations, and a way to send people there to spread the revolutionary gospel. If the british get antsy and try invading the river plate again we know they can be beaten in an even more complete way with french specialists in the ground. If after this hypothetical invasion we have an hypothetical sucession crisis... we can trigger the cortes to be called and from there, steer the entire former spanish empire to our side, politically wise.
if we do so, we have the entire american continent plus a proven trade line to china via the philipines. Europe? Who cares!
Instead of planning for a jacobin republic of Germany, we plan for a jacobin republic of China instead!
If we get some kind of franco spanish alliance that comes with an economic treaty with france plus netherlands, rhine and north italy we get an avenue of expansion that turns any european/anti british/anti russian adventure completely unnecessary. We get a huge consumer market for the manufactures of the free nations, and a way to send people there to spread the revolutionary gospel. If the british get antsy and try invading the river plate again we know they can be beaten in an even more complete way with french specialists in the ground. If after this hypothetical invasion we have an hypothetical sucession crisis... we can trigger the cortes to be called and from there, steer the entire former spanish empire to our side, politically wise.
if we do so, we have the entire american continent plus a proven trade line to china via the philipines. Europe? Who cares!
Instead of planning for a jacobin republic of Germany, we plan for a jacobin republic of China instead!
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And at least once during the whole Spanish Armada affair if I remember it correctly?