La Falta de Napoleon

Considering that the Napoleonic Wars were a major contributor to the Spanish loss of colonies abroad (i.e. Mexico), how do you think the history of the Spanish Empire would have changed had maybe the Spanish struck a deal with Napoleon or he simply never invaded? (Unlikely, I know, but still...)
 

Rockingham

Banned
Spain might remain a major player in the European power scene, but more likely it just leads to a far longer revolt in Latin America, and a bigger drain on both the rebels and Spain. Revolution a century earlier then OTL in Spain is not unlikely, and Latin America probaly ends up even poorer then OTL.
 
another effect the Wars had was to devastate all Spanish industry (and the rest was destroyed by Britain as they retreated, quoth someone on this forum), so with the Napoleonic Wars Spain would be a much stronger power, perhaps better able to hold on to the colonies for longer. They might make some reforms to give the colonies more freedom, just to appease the separatists there.
 
Spain might remain a major player in the European power scene, but more likely it just leads to a far longer revolt in Latin America, and a bigger drain on both the rebels and Spain. Revolution a century earlier then OTL in Spain is not unlikely, and Latin America probaly ends up even poorer then OTL.

One fun idea I've always had.

The US gets invovled in a war wtih Spain in the 1820s, and, to everyone's surprise, Spain gets hammered. [1] The US ends up awkwardly looking around as the Republic of Mexico asks for help...

[1] Why? Well, leaving aside the fact that Spain's recor din the era is not overly impressive, the British are also very, very annoyed that Spin is sill trying to forbid British trade with the Americas.
 
Well Spain was Napoleon's ally previous to his invasion. The future Duke of Wellington was actually preparing to lead an expedition with Fransico de Miranda to free South America from Spanish rule, when the Penisular War broke out and Wellington was instead sent to Iberia. If you keep Napoleon out of Spain, then you get major British involvement in the liberation of at least Gran Columbia, and probably all the way down to Peru. Miranda imagined a united Spanish America under an Emperor called the Inca, with a bicameral legislature. In OTL Miranda went ahead with the invasion anyway, and when the rebellion in Venezuela failed, Bolivar sold him out to the Spanish.

If you have this kind of major British invasion of South America I think that it is going to spur action in the United States to get in on the land grab. Control of Cuba and Florida would probably be the first orders of business, to defend our borders and make sure that American trade can't be chocked off in the Florida Strait. Then, perhaps American sponsorship of a Mexican Republic? Cooperation between the United States and the UK over the "Spanish Question" leads to a cool-down of tension as they both devote themselves to the important work of making sure that South America is as trade-friendly as possible.

Napoleon, even without his Spanish ulcer, is still going to mess up. The invasion of Russia was pretty doomed, and without Spain it just means that more troops will die. With American involvement in the Great Spanish Land Grab, does this mean that we see an American delegation in Vienna? John Quincy Adams perhaps?
 
The US sent a Delagation to Spain in 1806, to buy Flordia. The Spainish Ministers realized that they couldn't hold Flordia and worked out an Agreement.
The Agreement fell thru due to the King disliking the American Delagates. [Something said in Private that wasn't]
By the US sent different delagates, Charles had been replaced by Joesph, who wasn't able to sale -due to the treaty with France, where Charles had abigated.
The Agreement formed the Basis of the 1819 treaty.

The future Duke of Wellington was actually preparing to lead an expedition with Fransico de Miranda to free South America from Spanish rule, when the Penisular War broke out and Wellington was instead sent to Iberia
In 1806 US fillibusters proclaimed the Republic of Texas, Stomped by [New] Spain in 1809.

In 1806 Britian invaded Argentina [unsucessfully]

In 1811 West Florida applied to be anexxed by the US, The US turned then down, Not wanting to upset Spanish ally Great Britian.

Can anyone come up with a Joesph stays in Naples, no "Convention with Charles IV. May 5, 1808." TL, That uses the 5 above snippnets.
Convention with Charles IV. May 5, 1808.

De Clercq, Traites, II, 246-248.

Napoleon, Emperor of the French, King of Italy, Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine, and Charles IV, King of Spain and the Indies, animated by an equal desire to promptly put an end to the anarchy to which Spain is a prey and to save that valiant nation from the agitations of factions, wishing to spare it all the convulsions of civil and foreign war and to place it without disturbances in the only position which, tinder the extraordinary circumstances in which it finds itself, can preserve its integrity, guarantee it its colonies and enable it also to unite all its means with those of France in order to obtain a maritime peace, have resolved to unite all their efforts and to regulate in a special convention such precious interests . . .

. . . . .

1. His Majesty King Charles having had in view during all his life only the welfare of his subjects, and relying upon the principle that all the acts of a sovereign ought to be done only in order to attain that aim; able to be under the existing circumstances only a source of dissensions, all the more fatal since the factions have divided his own family, has resolved to cede, as he does cede by the present [convention], to His Majesty the Emperor Napoleon all his right to the throne of Spain and the Indies, as to the only one who at the point to which affairs therein have arrived can reestablish order; intending that the said cession shall take place only in order to cause his subjects to enjoy the two following conditions.

2. 1st. The integrity of the Kingdom shall be maintained; the Prince whom the Emperor Napoleon shall decide that he ought to place upon the throne of Spain shall be independent, and the boundaries of Spain shall not suffer any alteration.

2d. The Catholic, Apostolic and Roman religion shall be the only one in Spain; there cannot be tolerated there any reformed religion and still less infidelity, according to the usage established today.

. . . . .

[The omitted articles provide, inter alia, that the Spanish royal family shall have a refuge in France, a palace and grounds, a stipulated income and the enjoyment of their royal rank.]

11. The present convention shall remain secret until the Two High Contracting Parties shall see fit to make it known; it shall be ratified, and the ratification thereof shall be exchanged within eight days or as much sooner as shall be possible.

Done at Bayonne, May 5, 1808.
Napolean signed the paper making -Brother Joe- the King on May 6th
 
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Napoleon, even without his Spanish ulcer, is still going to mess up. The invasion of Russia was pretty doomed, and without Spain it just means that more troops will die. With American involvement in the Great Spanish Land Grab, does this mean that we see an American delegation in Vienna? John Quincy Adams perhaps?

I don't see why. Austria won't go to war in 1809, after all, which throws verything off kilter.
 
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