L Neil Smith - now in color!

[Redem]

Well you can't blame Lincoln for the civil war since states started to leave as soon as he was elected and not even swear in.

You can always wish a better guy had been there but it happen that what we have no way whatsoever you can say the other guy would have been better just because you don,t like the guy you ended up with

 

[Zen Redneck]

Well you can't blame Lincoln for the civil war since states started to leave as soon as he was elected and not even swear in.

You can always wish a better guy had been there but it happen that what we have no way whatsoever you can say the other guy would have been better just because you don,t like the guy you ended up with

But who do we blame for the civil war then? Obviously, there was a war impending, but Lincoln's reputation, and that of the Republican Party, some say, is what drove many Southerners to decide that secession was their only option. And once they'd seceded, why did Lincoln invade? Did he have to, or were there better options?

 

[Redem]

But who do we blame for the civil war then? Obviously, there was a war impending, but Lincoln's reputation, and that of the Republican Party, some say, is what drove many Southerners to decide that secession was their only option. And once they'd seceded, why did Lincoln invade? Did he have to, or were there better options?

You do realize civil war are war in general take years in the making hence it's often pointless to find (particulary in the case of the ACW)

Well wasn't the confederacy who started the civil war by shooting at Fort Sumter first.

 

[Amerigo Vespucci]

I laughed at the snakes in this week's episode. That was pretty funny.

 

[Greg Grant]

But who do we blame for the civil war then? Obviously, there was a war impending, but Lincoln's reputation, and that of the Republican Party, some say, is what drove many Southerners to decide that secession was their only option. And once they'd seceded, why did Lincoln invade? Did he have to, or were there better options?

All right, I'll bite - what better options were there?

 

[Zen Redneck]

All right, I'll bite - what better options were there?

To put it simply, not invading. There's a possibility that some states were pushed into seceding because of the invasion. Conceivably, holding back would have kept states like Tennessee and Virginia in the union, and either have prevented conflict entirely, or minimized it.

 

[Redem]

Well actually the four states that didn't right away after Lincoln being elected (Virginia,Arkansas, North Carolina and Tenesse) all went after fort Sumpter was attack

 

[Greg Grant]

To put it simply, not invading. There's a possibility that some states were pushed into seceding because of the invasion. Conceivably, holding back would have kept states like Tennessee and Virginia in the union, and either have prevented conflict entirely, or minimized it.

So, you wanted Lincoln to allow Union to be ripped to pieces and for states to reserve the rights to leave whenever they do not like election results? Would not that invalidate the whole concept of United States of America and make democracy on a national level pointless?

Any election would be threatened by the power of any one state to pull a fat-kid-taking-basketball-and-going-home-with-it-because-he-does-not-get-picked if they do not get their way?

The concept of majority rule, minority rights would have been destroyed and USA would cease to function on a national level, making US a loose confederation of useless small governments, each bitching at each other and helpless to do anything - like colonize the West, expand its territory and achieve anything worthwhile?

 

[Zen Redneck]

So, you wanted Lincoln to allow Union to be ripped to pieces and for states to reserve the rights to leave whenever they do not like election results? Would not that invalidate the whole concept of United States of America and make democracy on a national level pointless?

Any election would be threatened by the power of any one state to pull a fat-kid-taking-basketball-and-going-home-with-it-because-he-does-not-get-picked if they do not get their way?

The concept of majority rule, minority rights would have been destroyed and USA would cease to function on a national level, making US a loose confederation of useless small governments, each bitching at each other and helpless to do anything - like colonize the West, expand its territory and achieve anything worthwhile?

Actually, the states had every right to secede, and the concept of minority rights was under attack from the North.

We don't know if allowing secession would have led to the scenario you mention. It very well might have, but was preventing it worth all those deaths? And it might well have led to a much better world — we can't know.

Here's Mencken on the subject:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/mencken2.html

 

[Archangel Michael]

To put it simply, not invading. There's a possibility that some states were pushed into seceding because of the invasion. Conceivably, holding back would have kept states like Tennessee and Virginia in the union, and either have prevented conflict entirely, or minimized it.

Some states were pushed into secedding following Sumter, while a few notable officers sat on the fence. It wasn't until Lincoln called for the creation of an army to invade the South did they begin to throw their hats in the ring.

That's the thing about Lincoln. Since he won the war and saved the Union, he is known as one of our greater presidents. But if he had lost the war, he'd be seen as one of our worst by allowing the Union to implode.

 

[Redem]

Actually, the states had every right to secede, and the concept of minority rights was under attack from the North.

We don't know if allowing secession would have led to the scenario you mention. It very well might have, but was preventing it worth all those deaths? And it might well have led to a much better world — we can't know.

Here's Mencken on the subject:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/mencken2.html

As always Lew rockwell is always such unbias source

As far as we know allowing the southern state to separate might have cause even bigger war in the future.

On one hand you try to convice us that it would have been better if the southern state had separate but on the other you try to tell us that we don't know what the result would have been.

 

[Zen Redneck]

As always Lew rockwell is always such unbias source

As far as we know allowing the southern state to separate might have cause even bigger war in the future.

On one hand you try to convice us that it would have been better if the southern state had separate but on the other you try to tell us that we don't know what the result would have been.

You can find the Mencken quote lots of places. Rockwell didn't make it up.

True, we don't and can't know what the alternative would have been, but we do know what did happen — an enormous fratricidal war we're still suffering from. War isn't the answer to all problems.

 

[Redem]

How come the U.S still suffering from the civil war? (although I admit it do make never ending debate)

Yea war isn't the answer to all problem sadly the confederate leadership didn't think so

 

[Zen Redneck]

Here's a different take on Lincoln:
http://www.samfrancis.net/pdf/all1998.pdf#page=28

 

[Zen Redneck]

How come the U.S still suffering from the civil war? (although I admit it do make never ending debate)

Yea war isn't the answer to all problem sadly the confederate leadership didn't think so

As James Jones put it, we're not suffering from the Civil War as much as we are from reconstruction and its aftermath.

 

[Redem]

As James Jones put it, we're not suffering from the Civil War as much as we are from reconstruction and its aftermath.

Well can't really blame Lincoln for reconstruction policy as he was now around when it took place

 

[Zen Redneck]

Well can't really blame Lincoln for reconstruction policy as he was now around when it took place

Good point, and suggests a different POD. If Lincoln hadn't been assassinated, would reconstruction have been better? Worse? Different in some other way? Anybody tried to write that scenario?

 

[Redem]

Good point, and suggests a different POD. If Lincoln hadn't been assassinated, would reconstruction have been better? Worse? Different in some other way? Anybody tried to write that scenario?

Hard to tell pretty much all the years Lincoln have been president he was busy fighting the war and when he finally got rid of the C.S.A he got shots

 

[euio]

Good point, and suggests a different POD. If Lincoln hadn't been assassinated, would reconstruction have been better? Worse? Different in some other way? Anybody tried to write that scenario?

Lincoln had a reconstruction plan that was much easier on the South, IIRC.

 

[Zen Redneck]

That's my impression, too. Somebody should write such a scenario.