KV-1 Tank factory captured

One thing which i have wondered about is how the capture or destruction of the KV-1 production plant would have influenced the war.

Despite the T-34 taking the spotlight, the KV-1 was actually the tank which gave the Germans a massive headache in 1941.
I'd like to look at two possible scenarios:

1. KV-1 tank factory captured and pressed into service to strengthen Italian and Romanians tank forces.
Possibly KV-1 as fortifications later in the war.

2. KV-1 tank factory destroyed prior to being moved to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_Tractor_Plant

Thoughts and Ideas? Would the capture or destruction delay the introduction of the Tiger I tank?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
 

Redbeard

Banned
That should have been the Kirov factory in Leningrad then.

I don't think the KV1 was that attractive as a tank design though. There are a few very highly profiled examples of single (immobilised) KV1s holding up large forces until they were destroyed by assault teams or 88 or 105mm guns. The KVs had terrible problems with their transmissions (as did also the early T34s) and on top of their excessive weight this made them of limited utility - especially if you were on the offensive. It is also telling that the Russian quickly gave up combining T34s and KV1 in the same units - the KVs showed up to be a burden on the T34s! The KVs produced after the experiences in Barbarossa were lightened but never became fully satisfactory and the next generation of Soviet heavy tanks had an entirely new design - the IS. Which was quite impressive however - all that firepower, protection and mobility pressed into such a relatively small vehicle!

If having an intact tank factory I would much rather produce T34s, which I believe also were produced at this factory (in Leningrad anyway). But anyway I could imagine some challenges in having the workers show up next day and just consider it all a normal work day. And even if they did, you probably couldn't count on the old subcontractors delivering steel, coal and rubber. The big question is if it really is worth the effort to ship you limited resources of steel, coal and rubber up too Leningrad instead of using it in your existing factories in Germany and Bohemia. But perhaps dismantle the critical tools, lathes etc and install them in your existing factories. Would prefer a production of the Soviet 76,2 mm field/AT gun and 120 mm mortar though. The last was copied and produced in German factories as GW 42, but didn't enter widespread service until 1943. The Russian model was based on a French design from 1935, so it actually would have been possible to have this in large scale production in Germany by 1941. Would be worth its own ATL.
 
One thing which i have wondered about is how the capture or destruction of the KV-1 production plant would have influenced the war.

Despite the T-34 taking the spotlight, the KV-1 was actually the tank which gave the Germans a massive headache in 1941.
I'd like to look at two possible scenarios:

1. KV-1 tank factory captured and pressed into service to strengthen Italian and Romanians tank forces.
Possibly KV-1 as fortifications later in the war.

2. KV-1 tank factory destroyed prior to being moved to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_Tractor_Plant

Thoughts and Ideas? Would the capture or destruction delay the introduction of the Tiger I tank?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
Kinda like #1...heaven knows those fellas could have used some decent AFVs to stiffen their forces...
 
That should have been the Kirov factory in Leningrad then.

I don't think the KV1 was that attractive as a tank design though. There are a few very highly profiled examples of single (immobilised) KV1s holding up large forces until they were destroyed by assault teams or 88 or 105mm guns. The KVs had terrible problems with their transmissions (as did also the early T34s) and on top of their excessive weight this made them of limited utility - especially if you were on the offensive. It is also telling that the Russian quickly gave up combining T34s and KV1 in the same units - the KVs showed up to be a burden on the T34s! The KVs produced after the experiences in Barbarossa were lightened but never became fully satisfactory and the next generation of Soviet heavy tanks had an entirely new design - the IS. Which was quite impressive however - all that firepower, protection and mobility pressed into such a relatively small vehicle!

If having an intact tank factory I would much rather produce T34s, which I believe also were produced at this factory (in Leningrad anyway). But anyway I could imagine some challenges in having the workers show up next day and just consider it all a normal work day. And even if they did, you probably couldn't count on the old subcontractors delivering steel, coal and rubber. The big question is if it really is worth the effort to ship you limited resources of steel, coal and rubber up too Leningrad instead of using it in your existing factories in Germany and Bohemia. But perhaps dismantle the critical tools, lathes etc and install them in your existing factories. Would prefer a production of the Soviet 76,2 mm field/AT gun and 120 mm mortar though. The last was copied and produced in German factories as GW 42, but didn't enter widespread service until 1943. The Russian model was based on a French design from 1935, so it actually would have been possible to have this in large scale production in Germany by 1941. Would be worth its own ATL.

To be honest, the T34 and especially the poor production quality T34 of WW2 is highly overrated. About the only thing it had going for itself was its mobility.

The sturdy design would actually really benefit Germany's allies Italy and Romania since they rarely were front line units. The high defense would give those units what they were lacking OTL.

The Russians stopped mixing T34's and KV-1's due to the difference in mobility while mobility was key for the Soviet offensive actions.

Personally i think it is more telling that the Germans and Italians were planning to make use of captured KV-1's for their planned invasion of Malta. Not the T34's, but KV-1 tanks.
 
The KVs produced after the experiences in Barbarossa were lightened but never became fully satisfactory and the next generation of Soviet heavy tanks had an entirely new design - the IS. Which was quite impressive however - all that firepower, protection and mobility pressed into such a relatively small vehicle!

At the expense of ergonomics and crew efficiency
They would have been better off staying with the D-10 100mm gun than the 122mm
 
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Redbeard

Banned
Kinda like #1...heaven knows those fellas could have used some decent AFVs to stiffen their forces...

If I could wish for an AFV for the Italians and Romanians I would rather have something like SU76M. Simple to produce and operate, but still with excellent firepower and even better mobility. Just ideal for supporting the infantry heavy Italian and Romanian armies and also providing good resilience against enemy armour.

I know it wasn't in service until 1943 but it had nothing that wasn't available by 1941 - apart from the idea.
 
One thing which i have wondered about is how the capture or destruction of the KV-1 production plant would have influenced the war.

Despite the T-34 taking the spotlight, the KV-1 was actually the tank which gave the Germans a massive headache in 1941.
I'd like to look at two possible scenarios:

1. KV-1 tank factory captured and pressed into service to strengthen Italian and Romanians tank forces.
Possibly KV-1 as fortifications later in the war.

2. KV-1 tank factory destroyed prior to being moved to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelyabinsk_Tractor_Plant

Thoughts and Ideas? Would the capture or destruction delay the introduction of the Tiger I tank?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I

Somehow capturing the whole factory, that in the same time butterflies off the Tiger and Panther, would've been excellent for Axis war effort. Armor is thick enough so the Soviet 76.2mm cannon can't penetrate it from any side, and even the 57mm is marginal apart from very close ranges. Two/three things need to be adressed, though, the problems with transmision are in the 1st place. Install German sights and radios in the same time. For 1942, install German long 7.5 cm cannon, for 1943 the 8.8cm as the OTL Tiger carried. Plus the 'JagdKV', with long 8.8cm in superstructure.
 
Somehow capturing the whole factory, that in the same time butterflies off the Tiger and Panther, would've been excellent for Axis war effort. Armor is thick enough so the Soviet 76.2mm cannon can't penetrate it from any side, and even the 57mm is marginal apart from very close ranges. Two/three things need to be adressed, though, the problems with transmision are in the 1st place. Install German sights and radios in the same time. For 1942, install German long 7.5 cm cannon, for 1943 the 8.8cm as the OTL Tiger carried. Plus the 'JagdKV', with long 8.8cm in superstructure.
Making the "three man turret" into a three man turret (notice the quote pattern) would be concurrent with the armament change, I trust
 
I remember an old joke about Soviet tanks being designed to be only operable by a midget crew.
Well, not that far from the truth...they had a height limit on joining the tank troops, and the French tried something like that too, for a while, IIRC, but I was more thinking in terms of a turret crew of main gunner, rear machine gunner, and loader/commander. Really got to have your head up your ass to come up with that one.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Well, not that far from the truth...they had a height limit on joining the tank troops, and the French tried something like that too, for a while, IIRC, but I was more thinking in terms of a turret crew of main gunner, rear machine gunner, and loader/commander. Really got to have your head up your ass to come up with that one.
Three man teams were quite common in the SU - one who could write, one who could count and the third to watch if the two intellectuals were involved in any conspiracies... ;)
 
Going back on track, would the introduction of the KV tank into the forces of Italy and Romania have made a significant impact?

E.g. Would the KV-1 which was all but impervious to most allied Anti Tank until 1942 have changed the outcome of the Africa campaign or could the Romanian forces have held back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus long enough for German forces with escape from the trap?
 
One Problem, was before the invasion, the KV-1 wasn't made all at one site, like Chelyabinsk was after the evacuation were several plants were consolidated.

You had in 1941 one plant making the V-2 engine at Kharkov, another factory at Leningrad the cannon, and a third the electrical gear outside Moscow, all besides the assembly plant

So would need to use something for the powerplant, like the Isotta Fraschini Delta or FIAT A.30, probably the 75mm/L46 AAA tube for the cannon.

Last problem is finding thousands of more workers, 35,000 more workers were at Chelyabinsk after all the other seven transferred plants (and workers) were consolidated there.

I don't think the Italians could pull off new production before mid 1942
 
Going back on track, would the introduction of the KV tank into the forces of Italy and Romania have made a significant impact?

E.g. Would the KV-1 which was all but impervious to most allied Anti Tank until 1942 have changed the outcome of the Africa campaign or could the Romanian forces have held back https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uranus long enough for German forces with escape from the trap?

The North African campaign stalled out because guess what running a mechanized campaign across the Western desert takes a whole lot of supplies supplies that the Germans couldn't get through to Africa in enough quantities and unless the Romanians have enough gear to stop a Sov Tank Army the 6th still gets pocketed
 
The North African campaign stalled out because guess what running a mechanized campaign across the Western desert takes a whole lot of supplies supplies that the Germans couldn't get through to Africa in enough quantities and unless the Romanians have enough gear to stop a Sov Tank Army the 6th still gets pocketed

The idea is that the Germans and Italians may be able to hold off Monty at El Alamein due to the heavy armor of the KV which may extend the North Africa campaign by a few months. Then again it may also shorten the North Africa campaign if Torch continues as planned because the bulk of the Axis forces will still be held up in Egypt or Libya.

For Stalingrad, Axis forces having access to the sturdy KV-1 may allow Axis forces to take the soviet beachhead on the west bank of the Volga thus decreasing the front line and strengthening the axis defense.
Even assuming that the soviet offensive is not delayed by the lack of KV tank production, this sill means that the collapse of the axis front is slower than OTL and this will most likely allow the bulk of the 6th Army to escape encirclement.
It will most likely still be a bad place for any axis forces, but perhaps not the unmitigated disaster it was OTL.
 
Three man teams were quite common in the SU - one who could write, one who could count and the third to watch if the two intellectuals were involved in any conspiracies... ;)
That’s were in Eastern block usually cops. There was so many jokes about cops implying there were stupid. I am ot sure how in other countries but in Czech and Slovak republic similar jokes are still common.
 
Three man teams were quite common in the SU - one who could write, one who could count and the third to watch if the two intellectuals were involved in any conspiracies... ;)
That’s were in Eastern block usually cops. There was so many jokes about cops implying there were stupid. I am ot sure how in other countries but in Czech and Slovak republic similar jokes are still common.
Yeah, first time I heard it was about the Securitate in Caucescu's Romania in the '70s.
 
That’s were in Eastern block usually cops. There was so many jokes about cops implying there were stupid. I am ot sure how in other countries but in Czech and Slovak republic similar jokes are still common.

In all parts of ex-Yu it's about cops, blondes and Bosnians.
 
To be totally effective or in fact any real use at all over the short and medium term the workforce need to be captured as well and willing or cajoled into continuing to build the tanks.

A better use of the factory would be to strip it of it Machine tools and send them back to factories in Germany
 
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