Even accepting all of the rest of your proposed POD, this one little tidbit here is almost pure ASB, unless you have Hitler killed off or incapacitated in some way. Of course in that situation you have a strong chance of either a 'civil war' of sorts as the various factions in Berlin make a grab for power, or you get someone like Himmler running the show. In either case, a negotiated peace won't even be on the table because either a.)there won't be a unified leadership to negotiate with, or b.) whoever is running the show would think that victory is assured.
Kursh, 1943 Germans Win Big
- Thread starter Cryptic
- Start date
Even accepting all of the rest of your proposed POD, this one little tidbit here is almost pure ASB, unless you have Hitler killed off or incapacitated in some way. Of course in that situation you have a strong chance of either a 'civil war' of sorts as the various factions in Berlin make a grab for power, or you get someone like Himmler running the show. In either case, a negotiated peace won't even be on the table because either a.)there won't be a unified leadership to negotiate with, or b.) whoever is running the show would think that victory is assured.
BlairWitch749
Banned
Hitler sent peace feelers in December 1942 AND considered an ost wall (ie permanent positions with no new attacks) in 1943... he had considerably reduced his ambitions by that point
BlairWitch749
Banned
Its (the peace feeler) discussed in Dennis Showalter's Patton and Rommel book Men at War in the 20th century and other sources
The ostwall was a conversation between Hitler and Mussolini (mentioned in Guderian's memoirs) where Hitler agrees with him that the war in the east can no longer be won by offensive means and that in order to bring decisive power to bear against the western allied armies, it would be necessary to construct a fortified zone (or ost wall) to allow the axis to consolidate what they where holding after the debacle at Stalingrad
the wiki on the panther wotan line gives you some idea that he was at least semi serious about the idea of a real ost wall
wiki on the subject
All right, I found the data I was looking for. Otto Ambros was an employee of IG Farben, and discovered both Sarin Nerve Gas and Soman. At the time of the planning of "Citadel", Hitler was seriously contemplating the use of Tabun and Sarin gas against the salient; Albert Speer then brought up Otto Ambros, who managed to convince Hitler not to use the gas since he thought the Western Allies also had their own stocks of Nerve Gas; they would not develop their own stocks until 1949. Thus, gas warfare was not used.
If you kill off Otto Ambrose, it is very likely that Hitler would proceed with the use of Tabun and Sarin against the Kursk salient, which would be devastating to say the least. At the same time however, you prevent the invention of Soman gas.
Source is the "Crime and Punishment of IG Farben"
If you kill off Otto Ambrose, it is very likely that Hitler would proceed with the use of Tabun and Sarin against the Kursk salient, which would be devastating to say the least. At the same time however, you prevent the invention of Soman gas.
Source is the "Crime and Punishment of IG Farben"
Not if there was a Wermacht coup against Nazi civilian leadership. German Generals knew full well that a negotiated peace was the only solution. Even many of the Waffen SS commanders would probably go along with the Wemacht lead. By 1943, I could see such a coup if Hitler, Himmler and company refused negotiations that would leave Germany in either direct or indirect control over captured eastern territories.
Typo
Banned
The problem is that the Wehrmacht itself only had a very small minority in favour of a coup, especially so in 1943, also the Wehrmacht was terrible at politicking and carrying out coups.
You are the Sarin and Taubin of Threads.
Well, I killed another thread.
Snake Featherston
Banned
A big problem is that even if Germany wins the only intention of Kursk was to eliminate a single salient. And as it was, accomplishing that was rather beyond the capacity of the German army by that point. They literally cannot win Zittadelle, they can at best force a tactical inconclusiveness and even then that's a strategic defeat.
A decisive German win at Kursk would do more than just eliminate a salient. It would also cost the Soviets many of their best units and also show that Soviet skills at most levels were still far behind German skills.
If the Germans were still capable of decisive victories against the Soviets in 1943, they were also capable of knocking the Soviets out of the war (if German victories were matched by political concessions to the Russiana and Ukrainian peoples)
I agree, but that is due in part because of the "Unconditional Surrender" doctrine of the allies. In effect, the Wermacht had no choice but to fight with the political Nazis to the end.
Given real choices available in a negotiated cease fire, I think the wermacht would either pressure the political Nazis to enter into negotiations, or launch a coup if they refused to do so.
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Cryptic, it would do no such thing.
It would show that the Germans, by massing unprecedented force levels of armor, even at the expense of other fronts, had gone from sweeping victories that defeated entire nations in 1939-40 to seizing vast areas of the USSR in 1941-42 to being able to seize a single salient in the front at great cost and only after months of effort and a bloodier slogging match than ever before.
Nothing in that gives the slightest sign that Germany was capable of knocking the USSR out of the war.
It would show that the Germans, by massing unprecedented force levels of armor, even at the expense of other fronts, had gone from sweeping victories that defeated entire nations in 1939-40 to seizing vast areas of the USSR in 1941-42 to being able to seize a single salient in the front at great cost and only after months of effort and a bloodier slogging match than ever before.
Nothing in that gives the slightest sign that Germany was capable of knocking the USSR out of the war.
BlairWitch749
Banned
Decisive victory was impossible in 1943. Even Hitler didn't think so, and he was getting progressively more looney toons... he only saw Kursk as something to improve Germany's position (by shortening the front and eliminating some Soviet reserves) somewhat, and as a propaganda tool to show Germany wasn't beaten after Stalingrad.
Eliminating a small bulge in the line isn't much of a strategic objective for an entire campaigning season
BlairWitch749
Banned
After Stalingrad, not even the party hatchetmen thought that was still possible (hitler included)
Grimm Reaper and Blair Witch,
The military victory at Kursk is only half of the German equation. The other half would have to be political and that would involve setting up real Ukrainian and Russian alternative governments. Even after years of German atrocities, there were still plenty of Russians and especially, Ukrainians willing to fight Stalin.
The German rascist doctrine was mellowing slightly. Vlasov was allowed to raise an Army and an SS Division was recruited among Ukrainians. The Germans had to turn away thousands of willing Ukrainians. A German alternative government propaganda at Smolensk in 1943 was met with real enthusiasm.
I also find it funny that I was basically ignored in regards to points about Gas Warfare almost being used at Kursk.
I also find it funny that I was basically ignored in regards to points about Gas Warfare almost being used at Kursk.
BOOORING, let's talk about German flying saucers!!!
I'm still skeptical of Germany sending out peace feelers after a successful Kursk. As you said, in December of '42 he discussed such a possibility, yet in the very same month he declared war on the US. Also, 1942 Hitler was not as batshit insane as 1943 Hitler, and much of his inner circle seemed perfectly happy to climb aboard the train to crazy town right along side him.
Even so, I'm not sure that the Soviets would be willing to even sit at the table with the Germans even after a loss at Kursk, it would probably take at least another major defeat(see ASB) before they considered such a thing. Nobody trusted hitler to abide by any kind of agreement at that point, and unless threatened with total annihilation, nobody was going to even consider a peace deal with the bastard.
BlairWitch749
Banned
The defeat at Stalingrad, broke Hitler deeply... Guderian and Speer's accounts show him as extremely depressed and having moments of war is lost attitude (especially tied in with failure in Africa as well)
TBH there is no POD after the 6th army was destroyed where the Germans could win (ie destroy all the Soviet divisions in the Kursk bulge) at Kursk...
However... the Germans themselves built several excellent defensive lines around the salient (for example belgorad had 3 defensive lines protecting it from the east and 7 from the north)... if the Germans stayed put and waited for the Russians to attack in that sector (which they had also spent the last several months fortifying) its possible they could win a bloody defensive battle (win in the sense that they inflict a high body count whilst keeping their own losses under control)
Couple that with the extremely slow and disapointing progress in Italy, its not impossible that Hitler and or Stalin might try to send feelers again
Cryptic, Vlasov's 'army' never amounted to anything militarily and after murdering several million Russians and Ukrainians it is far too late to suddenly discover either an interest or an ability to form puppet Russian or Ukrainian regimes. Nor would a few small units equipped with outdated infantry weapons achieve anything, least of all with Germany's occupation zone in the east continuing to shrink.
The claim that German racist doctrine was mellowing slightly is absolutely false.
The claim that German racist doctrine was mellowing slightly is absolutely false.