Kriegsmarine focuses on operations in the Baltic

Khanzeer

Banned
End of 1942
After stalingrad german high command incontrast to OTL think defeat is inevitable and they simply want to hold the front.

They realize Soviets would break the siege of leningrad and will manage to push through the coast to eventually attack east Prussia

They also realize to use surface ships against british is suicidal

They decide to focus all the major surface ships [ destroyers and up] in the Baltic for fire support of army and to help their flanking operations
They include
Tirpitz
S &G
Hipper, prinz eugen
5 light destroyers
2 pred dreads
15 destroyers
Lutzow , scheer


What steps will you take as the KM commander to ensure the best possible use of these ships for army support?
 
A rational choice, but wouldn't Hitler see it as far more important to use the ships in harassing and limiting the Western Allies' Arctic convoys to Archangel and Murmansk? And wouldn't he want to continue to use them as an Atlantic fleet in being so the British couldn't send more heavy ships to the Mediterranean where the battle for North Africa was still raging?
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
A rational choice, but wouldn't Hitler see it as far more important to use the ships in harassing and limiting the Western Allies' Arctic convoys to Archangel and Murmansk? And wouldn't he want to continue to use them as an Atlantic fleet in being so the British couldn't send more heavy ships to the Mediterranean where the battle for North Africa was still raging?
Agreed! it's a defeatist attitude and probably not the best use of blue water ships but that's what the KM has decided

The u boats are left to harass artic convoys and smaller vessels will conduct coastal defence and ASW as in OTL along european coastline

Pros are
A- more protection of larger ships from air/sub attacks of RN FAA
B- no serious surface opposition in Baltic
C mobile batteries for fire support
 
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A great deal of the war in the Baltic was via submarines and mines. The Soviets were very short of heavy ships, and while most of them are in the Baltic, they are very reluctant to use them. IMO about the only thing the Kriegsmarine can accomplish here is to support amphibious operations. Even that is of limited usefulness in the Baltic in the scenario you describe. More minesweepers, more ASW assets and stronger Luftwaffe support would be needed to keep the German fleet from playing to the Soviet strengths and ending up sunk.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
A great deal of the war in the Baltic was via submarines and mines. The Soviets were very short of heavy ships, and while most of them are in the Baltic, they are very reluctant to use them. IMO about the only thing the Kriegsmarine can accomplish here is to support amphibious operations. Even that is of limited usefulness in the Baltic in the scenario you describe. More minesweepers, more ASW assets and stronger Luftwaffe support would be needed to keep the German fleet from playing to the Soviet strengths and ending up sunk.
True again but there were already sizable ASW MCM assests in Baltic
Plus all the luftwaffe fighters based around brest and Norway to protect the heavy ships could be used in the Baltic area now where they can also contribute against Soviets
 
True again but there were already sizable ASW MCM assests in Baltic
Plus all the luftwaffe fighters based around brest and Norway to protect the heavy ships could be used in the Baltic area now where they can also contribute against Soviets

Yes but what are there contributions going to consist of? What exactly will they contribute?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Yes but what are there contributions going to consist of? What exactly will they contribute?
In OTL a few KM ships by shore bombardment saved many bridgeheads to evacuate a significant amount of soldiers and civilians
I'm thinking if they have twice as many and far more capable surface ships then they can by shore bombardment keep the Soviets at bay longer than in OTL

Plus in the west these ships are just target practice, as far as fleet in being function is concerned as long as germans have control of Danish straits these ships can always go to Norway if needed
 
End of 42 is six months before Battle of Kursk; it will be quite a while before the Germans will be needing to use their heaviest ships to protect evacuations along the Baltic. Even then, most of the fighting will be inland far beyond the range of German naval artillery. To understand how far the Germans were from needing evacuation support at the end of 42, consider that the siege of Leningrad by the Germans would not be lifted until January 44.
 
The Soviet Baltic fleet air arm (land based) was active effectively during the Siege of Leningrad. It would be interesting to have an estimate of what air damage the Soviets could have done to German ships that ventured into the easternmost Baltic.
 

Khanzeer

Banned
End of 42 is six months before Battle of Kursk; it will be quite a while before the Germans will be needing to use their heaviest ships to protect evacuations along the Baltic. Even then, most of the fighting will be inland far beyond the range of German naval artillery. To understand how far the Germans were from needing evacuation support at the end of 42, consider that the siege of Leningrad by the Germans would not be lifted until January 44.
True but this is prep for future and when the time comes
1 german navy would be prepared much better for it
2 will have 3 times as many big gun ships [ 5 inch gun and larger] than in OTL
3 converse more of their fighter strength rather than marooning them in brest or norway
4 keeping the 7 or so capital ships tied up dozens of smaller sperrbrecher, AsW boats, Minesweepers, patrol boats too
If these ships move to Baltic so will most of their escorts and will bolster mine and sub defences there more

Essentially KM realize the big ships are useless for most of naval operations in channel artic and north seas as they were mostly carried out by Vorpostenboote, KFK, raumboot, S boot, Uboat jager in the OTL anyway
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
The Soviet Baltic fleet air arm (land based) was active effectively during the Siege of Leningrad. It would be interesting to have an estimate of what air damage the Soviets could have done to German ships that ventured into the easternmost Baltic.
Much bigger danger is mines and subs
In operation Albion germans had battleships damaged there so I doubt they will repeat the same mistake

The use of KM Surface ships for shore bombardment will be not for sometime as noted above in this scenario and since here the major focus of KM is pivoted to Baltic there will be enough assests to clear enemy minefield, and mount aggressive ASW patrols
Regarding soviet fleet air arm, moving ships east frees up 200 fighters [ as per late 1941,] so will undoubtedly help in countering them

If Finland stays in the war , it provides german fleet reasonable bases close to soviet shores to strike from and be under full time fighter umbrella
 
Much bigger danger is mines and subs
In operation Albion germans had battleships damaged there so I doubt they will repeat the same mistake

The use of KM Surface ships for shore bombardment will be not for sometime as noted above in this scenario and since here the major focus of KM is pivoted to Baltic there will be enough assests to clear enemy minefield, and mount aggressive ASW patrols
Regarding soviet fleet air arm, moving ships east frees up 200 fighters [ as per late 1941,] so will undoubtedly help in countering them

If Finland stays in the war , it provides german fleet reasonable bases close to soviet shores to strike from and be under full time fighter umbrella

This makes a lot of sense, but....the British were constantly making propaganda feints about invading Norway, which is one reason the Germans kept so many troops there. The Germans were never sure that Norway was NOT a serious target. So would they transfer all the fighter planes in Norway to a different theater? Then, if they have to transfer them back, the ships left in the Baltic might be subject to effective attack from the Soviet Baltic fleet planes. I'd still like to know more about that fleet's air arm and its record throughout the war. Further, over the course of 1943 the Brits might develop the air reach to block the exit from the Baltic and the route up the Norwegian coast via massive mining, and the Germans might need a substantial time to fix this. And Hitler might think a U.S.-British invasion of Norway is imminent and call back the Kriegsmarine from the relative safety of the eastern Baltic. Finally, if the planes in Norway are not used to protect the Baltic fleet, the protection has to come from the Eastern Front Luftwaffe, which would be greatly depleted that year by the need to protect the German homeland from Allied bombers, by losses in the Tunisian campaign, and by losses on the Eastern front from Soviet fighter planes of better quality than those destroyed during Barbarossa.
 
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Khanzeer

Banned
this focus needed to be in June '41 to prevent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_evacuation_of_Tallinn and later evacuation of Hanko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hanko_(1941) 10s of thousands of troops that contributed to the defense of Leningrad.

the KM would not need to risk new warships for this, their small attack craft and possibly the WWI-era large ships (if you choose to risk those) would be enough.
Germans wisely used small craft , aircraft ,coastal artillery and mines to inflict significant attrition on the evacuating ships
Its questionable if addition of big surface units would have given any added advantage

But if Soviet big units had decide to break out from Baltic then for sure the KM battlefleet would Have been the best way to stop them
 
this focus needed to be in June '41 to prevent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_evacuation_of_Tallinn and later evacuation of Hanko https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hanko_(1941) 10s of thousands of troops that contributed to the defense of Leningrad.

the KM would not need to risk new warships for this, their small attack craft and possibly the WWI-era large ships (if you choose to risk those) would be enough.

Germans wisely used small craft , aircraft ,coastal artillery and mines to inflict significant attrition on the evacuating ships
Its questionable if addition of big surface units would have given any added advantage

But if Soviet big units had decide to break out from Baltic then for sure the KM battlefleet would Have been the best way to stop them

you were asking for a focus on the Baltic, the time to do that is when the Soviet fleet was not bottled up in the Leningrad harbor.

the WWI-era battleships still in service did have 11" guns that could have been used against Hanko, they had radio controlled target ships that could have been moved near Tallinn for block ships?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
you were asking for a focus on the Baltic, the time to do that is when the Soviet fleet was not bottled up in the Leningrad harbor.

the WWI-era battleships still in service did have 11" guns that could have been used against Hanko, they had radio controlled target ships that could have been moved near Tallinn for block ships?
The predreadnoughts 11 " guns had poor range compared to the 12 " of gangut class so that is not a good time to
 
The predreadnoughts 11 " guns had poor range compared to the 12 " of gangut class so that is not a good time to

the two ships of that class in the Baltic hid out at Kronstadt, and was not projecting the German ships venture that far, at least initially, but rather (add to) the bombardment of Tallinn, to possibly force the Soviets to abandon the harbor in an even more disorganized fashion.
 
The focus on mid-1941 in the past half dozen postings is outside the parameters of this thread, which begins with a German decision at the end of 1942 to withdraw the surface fleet from defense of Norway and a fleet-in-being strategy, and put the Kriegsmarine in the eastern Baltic to eventually help with a defensive strategy against a resurgent Soviet Union. The postings based on the mid-1941 topic, which are of considerable interest, should be moved to a new thread.
 
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