Kriegsmarine behaves like HSF

[Monk78]

What if the German capital ships are not utilized for commerce raiding at all or intense involvement in invasion of Norway
By mid 1941 that means Germany has a battle fleet of
2 genuine battleships
2 battle cruisers
3 pocket battleships
2 -3 heavy cruisers
What is the best strategy for KM to utilize it as a “fleet in being “? Where should it be based ? Any low risk sorties ?

 

[CaptainCalvert]

What if the German capital ships are not utilized for commerce raiding at all or intense involvement in invasion of Norway
By mid 1941 that means Germany has a battle fleet of
2 genuine battleships
2 battle cruisers
3 pocket battleships
2 battle cruisers
What is the best strategy for KM to utilize it as a “fleet in being “? Where should it be based ? Any low risk sorties ?

I'm fairly sure this is a bad use of the fleet, but it has potential for a very cool fleet on fleet engagement. I'm hoping someone who knows what they're doing (definitely not me) will write about it.
Real life would probably be much less cool but more practical, involving carriers, torpedo and dive bombers, submarines and destroyer squadrons unless the weather is really bad.

 

[Monk78]

I'm fairly sure this is a bad use of the fleet, but it has potential for a very cool fleet on fleet engagement. I'm hoping someone who knows what they're doing (definitely not me) will write about it.
Real life would probably be much less cool but more practical, involving carriers, torpedo and dive bombers, submarines and destroyer squadrons unless the weather is really bad.

Well, my guess is that they will be hidden behind layers of torpedo nets and protected by minefields and covered by fighter aircraft

Is Norway a better place for them or somewhere in Denmark/ Germany ?

If in Baltic Will they be sufficient to seize Leningrad ?

Can they goad RN capital ships into ambushes where air attacks and submarine inflict disproportionate attrition on them ?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I'm fairly sure this is a bad use of the fleet, but it has potential for a very cool fleet on fleet engagement. I'm hoping someone who knows what they're doing (definitely not me) will write about it.
Real life would probably be much less cool but more practical, involving carriers, torpedo and dive bombers, submarines and destroyer squadrons unless the weather is really bad.

The RN has been planning to visit Wilhelmshaven for more than 20 years by the time Tirpitz commissions. Furious, Victorious, Ark Royal and probably even the ancient Argus will be glad to do the deed one dark night, while Bomber Command makes itself useful in the Hamburg area.

 

[Cymraeg]

First, if the Twins are not used at all in the Norway Campaign, that gives the Royal Navy back HMS Glorious, which was lost thanks to a) German luck and b) a RN Captain who, had he survived her sinking, would have been court-martialled for negligently hazarding his ship.
Second the thought of a fleet-in-being is a concept that would have escaped Hitler completely as he probably would have accused Raeder of being a coward in command of other cowards.

 

[Post]

What if the German capital ships are not utilized for commerce raiding at all or intense involvement in invasion of Norway

That would probably mean the Germans do not win in Norway, but the UK and France do.
Germany now has a nice fleet in being that can go nowhere. And it gets much harder for the U-boats to get into the Atlantic.
Assuming France still falls, but Norway doesn't, there's more incentive for France to fight on.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

By mid 1941 that means Germany has a battle fleet of
2 genuine battleships
2 battle cruisers
3 pocket battleships
2 -3 heavy cruisers

Not once these Gentlemen visit one cold dark winter's night (The early hours of January 1st 1940 should do). For the fleet in being strategy to work the KM has to be based to quickly move into the North Sea, which means Wilhelmshaven or Kiel, where they can be got at. By mid 1941 they're likely down to at most 2 capital ships, 1 heavy cruiser, a couple of iffy light cruisers and some destroyers hiding in Danzig.

 

[thaddeus]

Germany had the ocean liner Bremen hiding out at Murmansk at one point, if they were holding the surface fleet back per this scenario maybe they would make more of an effort to capture Leningrad and Murmansk?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Germany had the ocean liner Bremen hiding out at Murmansk at one point, if they were holding the surface fleet back per this scenario maybe they would make more of an effort to capture Leningrad and Murmansk?

Leningrad may get more attention, but Murmansk is a hell of a long way from anywhere. Even in OTL there was no real push to take it, here without being able to attack, let alone take, Norway the nearest German forces will be besieging Leningrad.

 

[Samsonov]

So this is likely ASB but... One (of many) barrier to a successful Sealion is removed if you can Tsushima the Royal Navy in a Jutland style engagement.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

So this is likely ASB but... One (of many) barrier to a successful Sealion is removed if you can Tsushima the Royal Navy in a Jutland style engagement.

Even an ASB couldn't pull that one off. If the German's has attempted to engage the Home Fleet in a full fleet engagement they'd have been wiped out. It was damn near ASB that they managed to survive the Norway campaign, which as it was was a disaster for the German Surface Fleet. They lost half their destroyers, one heavy cruiser sunk, one badly damaged, one PB damaged a light cruiser sunk and one of their two operational battleships was torpedoed and out of action for 6 months.

 

[CalBear]

So this is likely ASB but... One (of many) barrier to a successful Sealion is removed if you can Tsushima the Royal Navy in a Jutland style engagement.

Problem, of course, is that without the concern over surface raiders, RN heavy forces are not scattered all over Hell and Gone. There is a Squadron in the Med to deal with the Italian Fleet should it come out. and the rest is waiting for Jutland 2.0.

By the time Tirpitz is worked up the British will have (at minimum( 3 KGV, 2 Nelson, Warspite and one other QE class, Hood, Renown and/or Repulse, 6+ CA, 6-8 CL, and 20+ destroyers just waiting from the KM to come out.

Also waiting will be at least four full sized carriers with their escorts, all commanded by officers who, more than almost anything else, want to prove that their commands are the true power on the High Seas.

RN would kill them a lot.

 

[Monk78]

So this is likely ASB but... One (of many) barrier to a successful Sealion is removed if you can Tsushima the Royal Navy in a Jutland style engagement.

Not to derail my own thread, but suffice to say that even if the entire royal Navy disappears sea lion successfully achieving its objectives is still an impossibility

 

[Monk78]

Germany had the ocean liner Bremen hiding out at Murmansk at one point, if they were holding the surface fleet back per this scenario maybe they would make more of an effort to capture Leningrad and Murmansk?

the combined weight of fire of all these capital ships would be pretty significant in holding the red army back
If you compare to what happened in 1945 when only a couple of heavy ships very effectively aided an evacuation in the Baltic

….. if they can avoid the minefields

 

[Jacarí]

First, if the Twins are not used at all in the Norway Campaign, that gives the Royal Navy back HMS Glorious, which was lost thanks to a) German luck and b) a RN Captain who, had he survived her sinking, would have been court-martialled for negligently hazarding his ship.
Second the thought of a fleet-in-being is a concept that would have escaped Hitler completely as he probably would have accused Raeder of being a coward in command of other cowards.

HMS Glorious – The cover up of Churchill’s Operation Paul

On the 8th June 1940, the British aircraft carrier HMS Glorious and her two destroyer escorts, HMS Ardent and Acasta were sunk, returning home from Norway, by the German battlecruisers; Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. 1,519 British sailors, marines and airmen died in the Royal Navy’s worst loss of WWII.

www.hmsglorious.com

 

[Jacarí]

Not once these Gentlemen visit one cold dark winter's night (The early hours of January 1st 1940 should do). For the fleet in being strategy to work the KM has to be based to quickly move into the North Sea, which means Wilhelmshaven or Kiel, where they can be got at. By mid 1941 they're likely down to at most 2 capital ships, 1 heavy cruiser, a couple of iffy light cruisers and some destroyers hiding in Danzig.

IIRC,the RAF tried that in 1939, how did that go, remind me...

 

[matlef]

IIRC,the RAF tried that in 1939, how did that go, remind me...

Given that they were talking about the FAA, surely this:

Battle of Taranto - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Would be the more direct comparison? In which case i would say, it went rather well.

 

[Cymraeg]

So this is likely ASB but... One (of many) barrier to a successful Sealion is removed if you can Tsushima the Royal Navy in a Jutland style engagement.

Which would require equal numbers. Yes, ASB.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

IIRC,the RAF tried that in 1939, how did that go, remind me...

They tried in daylight, the FAA would go at night.

 

[thaddeus]

Germany had the ocean liner Bremen hiding out at Murmansk at one point, if they were holding the surface fleet back per this scenario maybe they would make more of an effort to capture Leningrad and Murmansk?

Leningrad may get more attention, but Murmansk is a hell of a long way from anywhere. Even in OTL there was no real push to take it, here without being able to attack, let alone take, Norway the nearest German forces will be besieging Leningrad.

for certain they would not capture Murmansk unless they are holding Norway and can persuade the Finns to take a more active role, after Leningrad was captured. (like part of a film I didn't like I skipped over the "not using larger ships during invasion of Norway")