Krampus Worldwide

I've been in the mood for a festive thread for a while, and decided on this one. What is the best way to make sure that Krampus, as a demon that works for Santa Claus punishing bad children, is a tradition in all countries that have a Father Christmas figure? This means not only making inroads in the English and Spanish traditions, but forcing out Black Peter and similar figures.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I'm fairly sure this can be done. All such figures come from the same general source. In the oldest stories, St. Nicholas / Father Christmas himself is a rather frightful figure, and the 'scary helper' was actually added later. (Or rather: there were often helpers of some sort present, but all the scariness later got transferred to those helpers.) One must consider, in that light, that some of the elements of the whole Christmas/Feast-of-st.-Nicholas shebang are really old... pre-Christian old. Some dispute this, but it's faitly evident to me that when we look at Father Christmas, we look at Odin. And when we look at his typically pitch-dark companion(s), we look at the ravens of Odin.

Well. Not really, of course. Not anymore. Because Christianity cleverly co-opted pre-existing traditions and overlaid Christian stories and feasts on top of them. Thus, pre-existing midwinter celebrations were repurposed to celebrate the birth of Christ, etc. -- and the figure of Odin became Father Christmas in folklore, and in a more official sense, was replaced by St. Nicholas of Myra. Now, Odin was a frightful figure in his own right, but portraying a saint as scary and perhaps even somewhat malevolent would not fly. So the scariness got transferred to his 'sidekick': a dark figure descended from those aforementioned ravens. In a Christian context, this became a tamed devil, enchained by the goodly saint to do his bidding... and to punish wicked children.

In Scandinavia and Iceland, I gather, the figure of Father Christmas is assisted by gnomes or dwarves of some sort-- and one suspects the polar-dwalling elves associated with him in America derive from that source. Yet could those (pre-Christian) sidekicks not easily be replaced by the 'tamed devil' archetype? Surely they could. Same for the Dutch 'Black Pete' (that poor chimney-sweep, blackened by soot, and these days so often tragically mistaken for a racist blackface caricature). This scary figure probably evolved from the 'tamed devil' archetype in the first place. The main challenge would be to make sure all such figures become or remain 'tamed devils'. We are talking about multiple separate developments, after all.

My suggestion would be a POD during Christianisation of Scandinavia, whereby the dwarves/elves/gnomes so popular there are seen as ungodly superstitition, and forcibly replaced by the tamed devil figure, i.e. a Krampus-analogue. This would result in a more standardised Father-Christmas-and-the-tamed-devil due throughout all of Northern Europe, a due which woyuld presumably spread to the USA as well. Assuming that this official interpretation of the festival becomes firmly set early enough, the Dutch evolution of the scary sidekick into a chimney-sweep is probably also butterflied away. Thus, the goal would be achieved.
 
Part of the problem is that Father Christmas in Britain wasn't a gift giver until Victorian times. He was a figure of merriment - feasting and drinking. It was only later that he absorbed the child giftgiving from the continent. Essentially he absorbed both St Nicholas and Krampus. He became bipolar as it were ;).
To have Krampus in the UK and thus all over the Empire, he needs to die off or be a weaker personification of the winter festival. Perhaps a less diverse Christian population might stress the saint-sinner aspects?
 
Part of the problem is that Father Christmas in Britain wasn't a gift giver until Victorian times. He was a figure of merriment - feasting and drinking. It was only later that he absorbed the child giftgiving from the continent. Essentially he absorbed both St Nicholas and Krampus. He became bipolar as it were ;).
To have Krampus in the UK and thus all over the Empire, he needs to die off or be a weaker personification of the winter festival. Perhaps a less diverse Christian population might stress the saint-sinner aspects?
How far back does this need to happen? If Mary I pressed Elizabeth to marry a Catholic Hapsburg, that Prince could bring Krampus to English Christmas as an analog to Prince Albert popularizing the Christmas tree.
 
Isn't Krampus an Austrian tradition?

Elizabeth, if she weds a foreign prince will go TO that prince, not him come to England, that analog won't happen. That only occurred with Mary because she was Queen Regnant.

Perhaps the feasting and drinking "dude" should have a malevolent side-kick who would take the food and drink if one wasn't 'pure' enough for God to bless them? That fits in with pre-Victorian conventions and with the Catholics wanting a punishment for those who don't follow Christ (prior to the reformation). Initially, the reformists tried to avoid anything with a Catholic taint - leading to Anabaptists and their like. So, perhaps a misunderstanding of the Djinn, translated through the Inquisition? Initially, the evil angel has no name, but the Austrian folklore character eventually morphs into it?
 
Isn't Krampus an Austrian tradition?

Elizabeth, if she weds a foreign prince will go TO that prince, not him come to England, that analog won't happen. That only occurred with Mary because she was Queen Regnant.

Perhaps the feasting and drinking "dude" should have a malevolent side-kick who would take the food and drink if one wasn't 'pure' enough for God to bless them? That fits in with pre-Victorian conventions and with the Catholics wanting a punishment for those who don't follow Christ (prior to the reformation). Initially, the reformists tried to avoid anything with a Catholic taint - leading to Anabaptists and their like. So, perhaps a misunderstanding of the Djinn, translated through the Inquisition? Initially, the evil angel has no name, but the Austrian folklore character eventually morphs into it?
Yes, Krampus is from the Austria and Tyrol area. I was thinking about an Austrian Hapsburg for Elizabeth, not a Spanish one.

I like your idea, and agree that initially Elizabeth would go there. But I think they'd still go the Prince Albert route if Mary ended up childless like in the OTL. Surely they wouldn't just skip to the next Tudor, especially if Elizabeth had children. In fact, you'd have the next monarch after her actually raised under Krampus' watch.
 
But would the nobility & parliament welcome Liz and her foreign fella (who will want to be king, as the Lord intended a husband to rule over the wife, doubt if Mary will wed Liz off to anyone close to a foreign throne?

Start before Mary, definitely. Start with the reconquest of Spain, the expulsion of the Moors and the Inquisition. Have it spread from there, to the Hapsburg lands. It goes to the Italian states and France, from France to it's associated lands and comes to England with Katherine of Aragon. It spreads and becomes part of the "idolatry" that the Lutherans and Calvinists and the reformers resist (which, of course, makes it fascinating for their children).
 
Maybe have some sort of Union between Britain and the Netherlands. The Royal family embraces the tradition and it spreads into British society from there (I believe that's how Christmas trees started in the UK due to it originally being a German tradition). From there it spreads across the Anglophone world and then globally due to American cultural hegemony.
 
Same for the Dutch 'Black Pete' (that poor chimney-sweep, blackened by soot, and these days so often tragically mistaken for a racist blackface caricature).
How far back does this need to happen? If Mary I pressed Elizabeth to marry a Catholic Hapsburg, that Prince could bring Krampus to English Christmas as an analog to Prince Albert popularizing the Christmas tree.

Traditions can be created and changed. Saint Nicholas was (as also mentioned in another post for Santa Claus)in the Netherlands before 1800 a scary figure, who did punish children. Black Peter was before 1800 a (non racial) black person with chains (dissapeared after 1900) and birch twigs (still), so probably also from the tradition of the tamed devil. He wasn't then a standard character in the feast.
Around 1800 many educators and priests had a problem with Nicholas image as a scarer and he became friendlier. Then in 1850 a book "Sint Nicolaas en zijn knecht" was published. This book would dominate the imagery of the feast and would sweep away all other contradicting sources of tradition there were. (It set also the way how Black Pete became the racist caricature it still is)
What this shows is that one book can change everything at least in one country. So what you need is one international best-seller about the Krampus tradition somewhere around 1840 that influences at least the English, Dutch and German cultural areas.
 
I've been in the mood for a festive thread for a while, and decided on this one. What is the best way to make sure that Krampus, as a demon that works for Santa Claus punishing bad children, is a tradition in all countries that have a Father Christmas figure? This means not only making inroads in the English and Spanish traditions, but forcing out Black Peter and similar figures.

Technically he works for St. Nicolas, who is not necessarily the same person as Santa Claus/Father Christmas. St. Nicolas comes on Dec. 6 while Santa comes on Christmas.
 
I still think the best option is the Moorish appropriation (via misinterpretation of Djinn), that gets it involved with Christmas and the church (the Catholic church notoriously stole pagan ideas, as well we all know); hell, "Krampus" could come to be a euphemism for inquisitors......
 
I've been in the mood for a festive thread for a while, and decided on this one. What is the best way to make sure that Krampus, as a demon that works for Santa Claus punishing bad children, is a tradition in all countries that have a Father Christmas figure? This means not only making inroads in the English and Spanish traditions, but forcing out Black Peter and similar figures.

Done early enough, Krampus will be the Netherlands' version of Black Peter and BP will be a minor figure, maybe an assistant of Krampus (if BP exists in this context).
 
I still think the best option is the Moorish appropriation (via misinterpretation of Djinn), that gets it involved with Christmas and the church (the Catholic church notoriously stole pagan ideas, as well we all know); hell, "Krampus" could come to be a euphemism for inquisitors......
If this happens in Spain, will Protestant states purge Krampus from their traditions like they did with other Catholic practices?
 
The extreme Protestants will (Anabaptists, Puritans, etc), just as they eschewed musical instruments, saints, icons, the concept of confession to priests for forgiveness of their sins, et al.

In Spain, Krampus will be seen as a representative for Satan, and used to terrorize children - by the Mother Church. (It's the persecuted by the Church's Hounds - Inquisitors - that will use Krampus as another name for them.)
 
If this happens in Spain, will Protestant states purge Krampus from their traditions like they did with other Catholic practices?
Sinterklaas is now celebrated in the Netherlands by all, even by the very strict protestants. F.I. the ones who walk 5 miles to church (no car allowed). Even some muslims celebrate at home (my samples here are from 25 years ago)
 
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