Korean-Japanese Alliance 1890s

What if in an alternate scenerio, instead of trying to annex Korea, Japan makes an alliance with them, and helps the Koreans fully Industrialize, to become the Korean Empire, while trading resources with each other, and the Japanese Empire and Korean Empire signs a treaty, making them Allies?
 
In 1890 Korea was still considered a tributary state of China. It wasn't just that though, Korea was the ideal tributary state, the country that validated the whole system. This all ended with the first Sino-Japanese war and set the stones for the annexation of Korea by Japan.

Japan and Korea shouldn't be just thought of in a bilateral sense. There was China - Korea - Japan or Foreign Powers - Korea - Japan.

Japan and Korea could evolve together as close allies. However there is a slippery slope from a close relationship changing into a protector-protectorate relationship. The whole setup kinda feels like a minefield. You could have a harmonious relationship in an ideal world, but figuring out how exactly Korean sovereignty would work seems more likely to result in war than peace.
 
Imperial Japan was considering conflict with Joseon Korea as early as 1873 during the Seikanron, a consequence of the Meiji Restoration's abolition of domains, the emperor's ascendancy, and Joseon Korea's refusal to symbolically prostrate themselves to the Japanese. Ultimately, over the next 4 decades, chances of an equal relationship would sink to absolutely impossible and the best Korea would be able to get is nominal independence.

The issue is that the Korean peninsula has long been an incredibly important area for Japanese geopolitical and strategic thought and allowing other powers (particularly Russia) to gain influence in Korea was tantamount to letting them directly threaten Japan and Japan's interests, economic and military. On the other hand, Joseon Korea was growing increasingly unable to maintain isolationism due to technological discrepancies with the imperial powers, which resulted in the imperial powers (again, particularly Russia) gaining influence in Korea. Additionally, a good portion of the Joseon court were wary of Japanese influence in Korea and thus tried to play the ever-dangerous game of balancing imperial interests to maintain independence, which led to more foreign (Chinese, then Russian) influence in Korea, which in turn turned domination of Korea into even more of a geopolitical objective for the Japanese.

Keeping Korea independent and allowing the Joseon court to conduct its own diplomacy and pursue its own agenda goes against Japanese economic and military interests, as the 1870s-1900s demonstrated to the Imperial court. Having Korea as a captive market shut out from potentially dangerous Russian and Chinese influence far outweighed any mutually beneficial partnership that Japan could get.

So long as Korea's demographics, technology, and military are able to be overwhelmed by Japan's, Korean independence was a matter of balancing foreign influences, which few countries actually managed to accomplish during the Neoimperialism era. You'd need a PoD before the Meiji Restoration for any 'partnership' not involving protectorates.
 
This seems a bit implausible. Japan, to industrialize on the home islands needs a new amount of labor. Taiwan is one good source, but they especially want Korea, and making an alliance would just make Japan less powerful.
 
If they did become allies and both industrialize, how would this effect WWII, or even the Xinhai Revolution?
Alright, so there's a few things to consider here:

1. Why would Japan want an alliance with a weaker, less populous neighbor with a good amount of untapped resources over a resource colony that could help provide minerals for Japan's own industrialisation and foodstuff to feed an increasingly urbanising Japan? Doubly so in the Age of New Imperialism and Japan's fascination with the West (and colonialism).

Mind, industrialising was expensive and the Japanese were dependent on foreign credit themselves into the 20th century. They're not exactly in the best position to start fueling an industrial revolution in another country (the US, UK, and France had more mature economies that newer industrial countries like Japan and Russia counted on for loans), especially in a country with half the population of Japan itself and with issues of unrest (the Donghak Revolution, most notably).

2. Such a development would require a PoD of *way* before 1890, so that butterflies a great deal of developments in China and Russia. This means WWI would be altered (since this would presumably affect the Russo-Japanese War) to an extent that WWII in turn might not even faintly resemble OTL's WWII. The Xinhai Revolution is a bit different but again depends heavily on the actual PoD.

Anyways, as unlikely as I personally find it, I'd say a best late start (latest PoD possible) would be to remove the Daewongun earlier, have the West try to open up Korea with a tad bit more force (the French and US attempts ended too inconclusively to shake the Joseon out of isolationism like Perry's Black Ships did with Tokugawa Japan), and have the Joseon court (particularly Queen Min) stay more favourable towards the Japanese. Toppling the Qing with the Taiping would perhaps help to shake up the geopolitical status quo enough for the Joseon to not diplomatically insult the Meiji court by refusing to acknowledge the Japanese imperial seal. With the West encroaching, China ruled by a new, Christian dynasty making deals with the West, and the biggest proponent of isolationism out of the picture, the Joseon would probably gravitate towards Japan more so than in OTL. A bit better political maneuvering, faster modernisation due to increased western presence (getting new medicines, technologies, and infrastructure rather than executing Christian missionaries), and a military with a bit more teeth than OTL and Japan might see it more worthwhile to treat Korea as its own personal Belgium (use it as a buffer) rather than its India, if I'm allowed the old lazy and forced parallelism of Japan with the UK. This in itself would probably keep Pan-Asianism from getting discredited in the way it did OTL (by getting tied to imperialistic and nationalistic ambitions).

Otherwise, the earlier the better.
 
This seems a bit implausible. Japan, to industrialize on the home islands needs a new amount of labor. Taiwan is one good source, but they especially want Korea, and making an alliance would just make Japan less powerful.
Is this imperialist apologia? I don't think Koreans would like it if you told them Japan "needed" to colonize Korea.
 
Is this imperialist apologia? I don't think Koreans would like it if you told them Japan "needed" to colonize Korea.

I think you might be misreading they’re comment. They’re saying that Japan needed Korea for resources, but the Koreans didn’t want to be annexed, they’re not saying Korea was better under Japan, which they were not
 
Is this imperialist apologia? I don't think Koreans would like it if you told them Japan "needed" to colonize Korea.

Japan needed Korea for human and material resources to fuel the industrialization of the home islands, and Korea was geopolitically important for further ambitions into China, which the 1895 war had proven Japan could have a stake in the influence of China. I never said it as in Korea was in a state where it was unarguable to say Japan needed to colonize Korea for it's own good.
 
I think you might be misreading they’re comment. They’re saying that Japan needed Korea for resources, but the Koreans didn’t want to be annexed, they’re not saying Korea was better under Japan, which they were not

Japan needed Korea for human and material resources to fuel the industrialization of the home islands, and Korea was geopolitically important for further ambitions into China, which the 1895 war had proven Japan could have a stake in the influence of China. I never said it as in Korea was in a state where it was unarguable to say Japan needed to colonize Korea for it's own good.
Can you please just say "most leaders of Japan at the time believed in the need" instead of only saying "Japan needed"? The latter sounds like excusing Imperial Japan's mistreatment of other countries to me.
 
Can you please just say "most leaders of Japan at the time believed in the need" instead of only saying "Japan needed"? The latter sounds like excusing Imperial Japan's mistreatment of other countries to me.
Don't be so dramatic.

I get your point and I also think they should express their point in a different way, but they are in no way trying to excuse the treatment Imperial Japan gave to other countries.
Crap, they wrote it in not the best way possible but they surely didn't try to support the actions of the Imperial regime.
Dang.
 
Don't be so dramatic.

I get your point and I also think they should express their point in a different way, but they are in no way trying to excuse the treatment Imperial Japan gave to other countries.
Crap, they wrote it in not the best way possible but they surely didn't try to support the actions of the Imperial regime.
Dang.
I understand that, which is why I was giving advice so that those words would be less likely to be misconstrued.
 
Can you please just say "most leaders of Japan at the time believed in the need" instead of only saying "Japan needed"? The latter sounds like excusing Imperial Japan's mistreatment of other countries to me.

I don't think I have to. If Japan was going to industrialize at the rate it was, it needed more people, more resources, and more land, then Japan needed Korea. If someone wonders if I am justifying Japanese annexation of Korea they can just ask and tell them I meant Japan needed Korea to industrialize. The entire thing was pretty irrelevant, so I'm not gonna talk about it anymore.
 
This was going to be difficult. As Japan slowly industrialized, it relied heavily on Korean agricultural goods for domestic consumption.

Unless Japan was able to find a new and cheap source of rice, Korea and Japan could not become allies.
 
I read a scenerio from another thread about a similar subject

PoD Saigo Takamori gets permission to invade Korea in 1873 using a Samurai Army, basically in order to keep said samurai from attempting to overthrow the Meiji Government.

Basicallly, you have a half feudal, half modern force invade and it does fairly well, until Korea asks for help from either Russia, France or Britain, which it gets, at a cost, both financial and diplomatically such as trade concessions.

In exchange the need to modernize fast is brought home to the Koreans in a most intimate fashion, which they do, adopting a very Meiji like attitude, with slogans Rich nation, Strong Army.

After Saigo's invasion is beaten back, cooler heads prevail in Tokyo. Also, as time goes by, the danger that Korea will become a colony of Russia or Great Britain recedes, the national security danger to Japan recedes. Meiji leaders perceived Korea as a colony to be a dagger pointed at Japan. A Korea modernized enough to fend off colonization is still too weak to invade Japan. Saigo's war being a disaster, curbed Japan of it's imperial ambitions.

In that situation, Korea and Japan working together against unequal treaties makes sense, as does alliance and close cooperation.

The results are two nations working side by side to maintain their independence and essentially more or less equals.

All the Best,

Kerney
 
I read a scenerio from another thread about a similar subject
Why would the Joseon not ask the Qing for help? Mind, the Qing were still perceived as stronger than Japan by the European powers even up until the First Sino-Japanese War. The Daewongun is still in power in 1873, regardless, and he was the epitome of isolationism and the preservation of the old, hierarchal structure of Joseon society. On that note, to modernise, Korea needs to emancipate the sangmin (basically serfs) and that would terribly weaken the yangban ruling class, who held immense power in Joseon Korea.

Other than that, the Joseon were suffering from corruption (due in part to the erosion of royal authority to the influence of royal consorts' families) and internal unrest due to famine and poverty, which is what triggered the Donghak Rebellion (more or less a toned down version of the Qing's Taiping Rebellion). More explicit cooperation with foreign powers would only worsen the situation.
 
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