Korean Empire

[democracy101]

So, I'm turning over a fresh new leaf (literally) and am thinking about completely revamping this timeline. Please message me directly with any general suggestions, comments, or questions about this "new" timeline because I'm getting pretty tired after attempting to respond to each single comment literally every single week, and the timeline's just not getting anywhere.

Anyway, here's what I decided to do. Gwanggaeto is not going to attempt to conquer North China (meaning the Wei), and the Wei nor any of the other Northern Chinese kingdoms are going to do so either. However, Gwanggaeto is still going to manage to conquer all of Manchuria, the Korean Peninsula, and Japan, while still managing to hand the throne over to Jangsu at the same time as in OTL. Jangsu is going to then sign alliances with the Wei, assuming that they are going to "unite" North China by the early 400's, and the Liu Song will be forced to sign treaties separately with the Wei and Goguryeo. This situation will then continue basically similar to that in OTL, until one of the later Goguryeo emperors/kings makes a second divergence from OTL by managing to invade and conquer the Wei and Xinjiang within 15-20 years after numerous years of training. This might then change history significantly when the Abbasids invade Central Asia, but I'll try to figure that out when I get there.

So by 750-800, Goguryeo will probably control Xinjiang, North China, Manchuria, the Korean peninsula, and Japan. They might then conduct diplomatic missions with India, South China, and Southeast Asia. However, Goguryeo will be quickly overthrown in 901, when Gung Ye manages to overthrow the emperor in a coup and remain in charge of a military dictatorship for 17 years, from 901 to 918. However, the military will be dissatisfied with his rule, and Wang Geon will overthrow him, become Emperor Taejo, and found the Goryeo dynasty.

Eventually, Genghis Khan is going to invade Korea after he unites his people starting in the early 1200's, and things will then become similar to OTL once again. However, the Mongols will never manage to completely conquer China, and Korea will manage to reclaim Xinjiang, North China, and the Korean peninsula, although I'm not sure about if Japan might declare independence.

And I'll worry about 1400-2000 later when I'll have the time to do so.

I hope this makes things much easier for everyone.

 

[Yelnoc]

If the POD is in the 7th century then wouldn't that butterfly away Ghengis Khan?

 

[Finn]

If the POD is in the 7th century then wouldn't that butterfly away Ghengis Khan?

Now that is one person I have long ago given up on getting people to butterfly away. Apparently he is a fixed event in timespace.

I do agree a rehash of this timeline would be good for fleshing it out, and I look forward to reading it.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Please message me directly with any general suggestions, comments, or questions about this "new" timeline because I'm getting pretty tired after attempting to respond to each single comment literally every single week, and the timeline's just not getting anywhere.

Private messages are inappropriate. Because any comment on the logic of the timeline that is worth writing down at all is worth sending not just to you (it is up to you whether you are inclined to listen) but to others who may be reading.

Anyway, here's what I decided to do. Gwanggaeto is not going to attempt to conquer North China (meaning the Wei), and the Wei nor any of the other Northern Chinese kingdoms are going to do so either. However, Gwanggaeto is still going to manage to conquer all of Manchuria, the Korean Peninsula, and Japan,

I have doubts about Japan. But this does not change the next significant point.

while still managing to hand the throne over to Jangsu at the same time as in OTL. Jangsu is going to then sign alliances with the Wei, assuming that they are going to "unite" North China by the early 400's, and the Liu Song will be forced to sign treaties separately with the Wei and Goguryeo. This situation will then continue basically similar to that in OTL, until one of the later Goguryeo emperors/kings makes a second divergence from OTL by managing to invade and conquer the Wei and Xinjiang

It does not need to be a big divergence.

If we make the PoD that Jangsu instead of Northern Wei takes over Northern Yan, then it can have downstream effects - but it does not change everything.

The details of inner politics of Northern Wei court would be butterflied to be completely different if Koguryo is stronger than in OTL. But it would not be ASB if the end outcome is that Northern Wei breaks up in mid-6th century, much like in OTL.

And then Koguryo tries to take advantage of the disunion. Let us make it the "second PoD" that Koguryo succeeds.

within 15-20 years after numerous years of training.

Not very probable.

One case when conquering China did take long was by Mongols. 1210 to 1279.

But most of time, China was conquered by taking advantage of internal dissensions. An attack either succeeded in a few years, or failed.

Northern Zhou attacked Northern Qi in autumn 575. At that point, Northern Qi held Luoyang and the whole central plain.

By spring 577, in less than two years, Northern Zhou had conquered Northern Qi. Just 12 years after that, Sui conquered Chen. So, a small state in Guanzhong needed 14 years for unification.

This might then change history significantly when the Abbasids invade Central Asia, but I'll try to figure that out when I get there.

Ask it this way:
what would Koguryo do differently than OTL Tang did?

However, Goguryeo will be quickly overthrown in 901, when Gung Ye manages to overthrow the emperor in a coup and remain in charge of a military dictatorship for 17 years, from 901 to 918. However, the military will be dissatisfied with his rule, and Wang Geon will overthrow him, become Emperor Taejo, and found the Goryeo dynasty.

No, An Lushan and Huang Chao will overthrow Koguryo ;-)

Seriously, there will be rebels and traitors who have completely different names than OTL. But the politics of Great Koguryo will have much more in common with OTL Tang than with OTL Silla.

And of course Genghis Khan is butterflied away.

 

[maverick]

I'm really surprised you've lasted this long with everyone pounding on this poor little Timeline, you sure know how to take a punch...

Hopefully You'll have a long and prosperous future here...

 

[democracy101]

If the POD is in the 7th century then wouldn't that butterfly away Ghengis Khan?

The only way that Genghis Khan is going to be butterflied away is if a non Central Asian country/kingdom/empire manages to completely conquer Central Asia between 500 and 1100 AD in any way, shape or form.

This is probably not going to happen in this timeline, although the ATL Mongol Empire is going to crumble after conquering Central Asia (including Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, and North China), and probably a significant part of Eastern Europe, although I'm not sure if Kiev is going to be completely conquered by Mongols.

Now that is one person I have long ago given up on getting people to butterfly away. Apparently he is a fixed event in timespace.

I do agree a rehash of this timeline would be good for fleshing it out, and I look forward to reading it.

Haha yes, but the biggest problem that I'm focusing on is what is going to happen in the ATL Battle of Talas, because each side can mobilize from 10,000 to 500,000 extremely trained troops, so it's really going to be a close fight.

The Abbasid Empire might crumble, allowing the Byzantines to survive (?) longer, Goguryeo might collapse, or both might collapse and other empires might be able to fill in the power vaccum. In OTL, it really didn't make a big "difference" except for the transmission of paper, but in this situation, a number of plausible scenarios might happen, and that's why I'm not trying to type up something and actually post it as part of my "timeline" until everyone agrees that the whole situation makes sense.

Again, just message me with any possible suggestions if you have the time to do so. I don't mind if people post directly on this thread, but if each person posts with comments, that's going to take up about 1-3 pages, which I really don't find useful because I originally wanted to make updates at least once a month without talking about why this isn't possible and this is possilble and all that discussion.

That's all.

 

[charl]

The only way that Genghis Khan is going to be butterflied away is if a non Central Asian country/kingdom/empire manages to completely conquer Central Asia between 500 and 1100 AD in any way, shape or form.

I don't think you understand the butterfly effect. Look at it like this. You have your Korea and whatnot going in a different direction from real life, and somewhere down the line a merchant somewhere is passing by, and makes a different decision from real life. Say he stays an extra ten minutes in a village due to taxation differences from OTL, or whatever. Said merchant then goes on to Mongolia. That merchant could have been the one that IOTL caused Genghis Khan's parents to meet, even if it was completely by accident. Say mama Genghis was looking for a ribbon and the merchant sold them and papa Genghis happened to be there at the time as well. Now those extra ten minutes might mean the merchant doesn't get to even enter the town that this happened in IOTL because they closed to barricades for sundown, or that mama Genghis went to another merchant instead, and never met papa Genghis.

In any case, Genghis Khan is not going to happen. The minute details of what allowed him to come into existence in the first place simply aren't there. That's how the butterfly effect works. It's always best to assume that nothing and no one that existed IOTL is going to do so in an ATL after the PoD, unless they were already alive before it happened. And that really means no one.

 

[democracy101]

Private messages are inappropriate. Because any comment on the logic of the timeline that is worth writing down at all is worth sending not just to you (it is up to you whether you are inclined to listen) but to others who may be reading.

I have doubts about Japan. But this does not change the next significant point.

It does not need to be a big divergence.

If we make the PoD that Jangsu instead of Northern Wei takes over Northern Yan, then it can have downstream effects - but it does not change everything.

The details of inner politics of Northern Wei court would be butterflied to be completely different if Koguryo is stronger than in OTL. But it would not be ASB if the end outcome is that Northern Wei breaks up in mid-6th century, much like in OTL.

And then Koguryo tries to take advantage of the disunion. Let us make it the "second PoD" that Koguryo succeeds.

Not very probable.

One case when conquering China did take long was by Mongols. 1210 to 1279.

But most of time, China was conquered by taking advantage of internal dissensions. An attack either succeeded in a few years, or failed.

Northern Zhou attacked Northern Qi in autumn 575. At that point, Northern Qi held Luoyang and the whole central plain.

By spring 577, in less than two years, Northern Zhou had conquered Northern Qi. Just 12 years after that, Sui conquered Chen. So, a small state in Guanzhong needed 14 years for unification.

Ask it this way:
what would Koguryo do differently than OTL Tang did?

No, An Lushan and Huang Chao will overthrow Koguryo ;-)

Seriously, there will be rebels and traitors who have completely different names than OTL. But the politics of Great Koguryo will have much more in common with OTL Tang than with OTL Silla.

And of course Genghis Khan is butterflied away.

I completely understand your point about private messages, but please look at all of the seven pages and six posts and please tell me that there hasn't been any significant discussion that has already going on. Also, please tell me that it isn't amazing about the fact that I do not have a headache after constantly trying to respond to everyone's comments while looking at Wikipedia to make sure I'm not making stuff up and carpal tunnel syndrome after typing each day for at least 1-2 hours.

Anyway, if Goguryeo manages to keep its capital in Pyongyang or somewhere in Manchuria for about 200-300 years, it would be a combination of OTL Goguryeo, Balhae, Sui, Tang, and Wei, all at the same time. Please tell me that that fact alone isn't enough to make a person stare at the wall thinking about that for about 2 hours.

And if Central Asia (meaning around modern-day Mongolia) isn't significantly affected, that means that Genghis Khan could plausibly be born and still manage to become a great leader like in OTL.

And I have to worry about AP Spanish Literature, AP English Literature, AP Calculus BC, and AP Economics every day until the AP exams in May.

And Maverick, thank you for your support. I was about to worry if anyone was going to understand the situation that I was in for the last 5 months.

So . . . anything else?

 

[democracy101]

I don't think you understand the butterfly effect. Look at it like this. You have your Korea and whatnot going in a different direction from real life, and somewhere down the line a merchant somewhere is passing by, and makes a different decision from real life. Say he stays an extra ten minutes in a village due to taxation differences from OTL, or whatever. Said merchant then goes on to Mongolia. That merchant could have been the one that IOTL caused Genghis Khan's parents to meet, even if it was completely by accident. Say mama Genghis was looking for a ribbon and the merchant sold them and papa Genghis happened to be there at the time as well. Now those extra ten minutes might mean the merchant doesn't get to even enter the town that this happened in IOTL because they closed to barricades for sundown, or that mama Genghis went to another merchant instead, and never met papa Genghis.

In any case, Genghis Khan is not going to happen. The minute details of what allowed him to come into existence in the first place simply aren't there. That's how the butterfly effect works. It's always best to assume that nothing and no one that existed IOTL is going to do so in an ATL after the PoD, unless they were already alive before it happened. And that really means no one.

Look at my last post for my explanations.

 

[charl]

Look at my last post for my explanations.

But your PoD is in 300 or so right? And Genghis Khan isn't born until 1200 or so? Korea and Mongolia is not going to go 900 years without ever interacting in some way. In short, it's not very plausible. And that's not even getting into that human activity subtly influences weather patterns which in an almost 1000 year long time is going to have a lot of influence on Mongolia and indeed all the world.

Of course, you are still allowed to make an artistic choice to ignore the butterfly effect. That is excusable (though in my experience not very popular in this community). Just be open about it.

 

[democracy101]

But your PoD is in 300 or so right? And Genghis Khan isn't born until 1200 or so? Korea and Mongolia is not going to go 900 years without ever interacting in some way. In short, it's not very plausible. And that's not even getting into that human activity subtly influences weather patterns which in an almost 1000 year long time is going to have a lot of influence on Mongolia and indeed all the world.

Of course, you are still allowed to make an artistic choice to ignore the butterfly effect. That is excusable (though in my experience not very popular in this community). Just be open about it.

Exactly why I would rather get like 3 messages that are short, concise, and to the point (I know that's repetitive) about every week, because it otherwise looks like everyone is flaming, trolling, and what not, all at the same time.

I mean, the way I see it, I understand that a small change can prevent Genghis Khan from coming to power, but if we're really going to argue that, then we're really not going to go anywhere, because we might as well say that some person in 1000-1500 develops the concept of an atomic bomb and manages to nuke everyone by 1500-1700.

See what I mean?

 

[charl]

Exactly why I would rather get like 3 messages that are short, concise, and to the point (I know that's repetitive) about every week, because it otherwise looks like everyone is flaming, trolling, and what not, all at the same time.

I mean, the way I see it, I understand that a small change can prevent Genghis Khan from coming to power, but if we're really going to argue that, then we're really not going to go anywhere, because we might as well say that some person in 1000-1500 develops the concept of an atomic bomb and manages to nuke everyone by 1500-1700.

See what I mean?

Well if you can figure out a way to advance human science and understanding of physics to make that plausible by that point then hell, sure, write it up. Would make for an interesting timeline. I just don't see how technology could possibly be that good by that time. There are issues of resource management and educational possibilities that would probably be very hard if not impossible to overcome that early in human history.

 

[democracy101]

Well if you can figure out a way to advance human science and understanding of physics to make that plausible by that point then hell, sure, write it up. Would make for an interesting timeline. I just don't see how technology could possibly be that good by that time. There are issues of resource management and educational possibilities that would probably be very hard if not impossible to overcome that early in human history.

The thing is, I would do it, but one, it would be ASB, and two, I'm more interested in making this OTL/ATL-ish timeline as of right now.

 

[charl]

The thing is, I would do it, but one, it would be ASB, and two, I'm more interested in making this OTL/ATL-ish timeline as of right now.

It would only be ASB if you couldn't figure out a way to do it plausibly.

And quite frankly if that is your objection, then Genghis Khan existing in your timeline is pretty ASB too, even if it is a purely artistic choice.

 

[democracy101]

So just to let everyone know, I've decided to permanently fold this timeline into this one from now on.