Korea, why always conquered?

[General Mung Beans]

It was only until Japan industrialized was it able to surpass Korea technologically and colonize it. Of course, to be fair, Japan was probably more culturally and economically advanced than Korea.

No it wasn't. Korean has superior craftworks and after the Corean-Japanese War of 1592 several thousand Corean craftworkers were taken as prisoners.

Furthermore, culturally, Japan was very developed, as evidenced by kabuki, noh, and the tea ceremony.

Only because they were STOLEN from the Coreans.

Anyway I think by the 19th Century Corea conquering Japan would be hard-very hard unless Japan doesn't modernize. A better scenario would be Corea having a Sino-Corean war where Corea annexes Manchuria and maybe Shandong and Formosa. You'll see Korea ally with the Central Powers especially Germany against Japan who'll like OTL will probably ally with Britain.

 

[Nicole]

The Chinese tend to assimilate their conquerers.

But the conquerors in question were the Manchu and Mongols- uncivilized peoples tending to be nomadic... I don't know if you can say the same about a settled urban people with established written culture like the Koreans. (Or the Japanese, for that matter)

 

[Solomaxwell6]

Only because they were STOLEN from the Coreans.

Stolen?

Cultural diffusion is not cultural stealing. And for the most part, Korea was a cultural bridge between China and Japan. A lot of what they passed on to Japan wasn't unique. This is not to say that Korea wasn't cultured, but they certainly adapted a lot of Chinese culture.

Kabuki is Japanese anyway. Showed up during the Sengoku Era in Japan. I believe Noh is originally Japanese, as well.

Anyway I think by the 19th Century Corea conquering Japan would be hard-very hard unless Japan doesn't modernize. A better scenario would be Corea having a Sino-Corean war where Corea annexes Manchuria and maybe Shandong and Formosa. You'll see Korea ally with the Central Powers especially Germany against Japan who'll like OTL will probably ally with Britain.

The problem with that is you'd still need Korea to win a war against China... Not an easy task. There's a good reason Korea was part of China's cultural sphere for most of its history.

 

[General Mung Beans]

Stolen?

Cultural diffusion is not cultural stealing. And for the most part, Korea was a cultural bridge between China and Japan. A lot of what they passed on to Japan wasn't unique. This is not to say that Korea wasn't cultured, but they certainly adapted a lot of Chinese culture.

Kabuki is Japanese anyway. Showed up during the Sengoku Era in Japan. I believe Noh is originally Japanese, as well.



The problem with that is you'd still need Korea to win a war against China... Not an easy task. There's a good reason Korea was part of China's cultural sphere for most of its history.

Well Japan defeated China because the former modernized. I'm assuming a similar situation for Corea.

 

[Solomaxwell6]

Well Japan defeated China because the former modernized. I'm assuming a similar situation for Corea.

Unless you either have an early PoD or a Balkanized China, Korea is going to be, more or less, China's vassal. Culturally, when not in fact. So if China doesn't feel like modernizing, there's going to be a strong impetus not to modernize.

 

[Metro]

Why does Korea need to fight China. As long as the Koreans paid tribute to China the Chinese would not interfer. Even Japan paid tribute to China.

Found a list of places that paid tribute to China. Did not think it was so long. And Russia is not on the list but they did pay tribute
to China in 1655, 1656, 1676 and 1727.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China

But even China paid tribute:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recipients_of_tribute_from_China

Edit: Found Russia on the lower part of the page.

 

[Nicole]

Why does Korea need to fight China. As long as the Koreans paid tribute to China the Chinese would not interfer. Even Japan paid tribute to China.

Found a list of places that paid tribute to China. Did not think it was so long. And Russia is not on the list but they did pay tribute to China in 1655, 1656, 1676 and 1727.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China

But even China paid tribute:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recipients_of_tribute_from_China

The UK makes the list of tributaries- someone needs to edit the OTL maps so that the UK territories are outlined by China's color.

 

[Kenichiro Harada]

If we were to talk a realistic alternate Korea,then the nation would be independant..and no extra land. Let us think of this,if the Qing did not weaken toward the middle and late 1800's Russia would not even be a factor. But Japan would,if Korea had modernized with America's help..which Korea did..I remember reading that Korea sent a diplomat to the USA in 1888 to try and help modernize the country.

So let's say that with a strong China,and Korea still paying tribute..and with American investment..Korea would be a equal power to Japan..who would seek help and look to Europe as well as America to advance. I see the three just being powers,but none would dominate the other...except for China. Which could possibly take either one,if China had wanted to.

Looking at things how they were in OTL,I would sort of strech it and have the USA look into possibly helping the Gojoseon from being taken out of power. If people want to see a Korean Dynasty in modern times,I can't see the avoidment of Japanese annexation in 1910 unless it's a little strech of things. Russia is a real stick-in-the-mud with this,the annexation of Outer Manchuria..as seen in this thread. Shows a few reasons why such a thing happened at all.

 

[Solomaxwell6]

But Japan would,if Korea had modernized with America's help..which Korea did..I remember reading that Korea sent a diplomat to the USA in 1888 to try and help modernize the country.

Yes. Korea did have a period of strong modernization. After the First Sino-Japanese War, when Korea had moved from China to Japan's sphere of influence but before it was absorbed into the Japanese Empire, the Korean Empire made huge attempts to modernize the nation. American advisers were brought over to help plan out land reform, among other things. I think the Korean Empire only lasted like 15 years though (could be mistaken), so there just wasn't the time to really build the same sort of industrial base as Japan.

 

[tormsen]

The Chinese tend to assimilate their conquerers.

That is indeed the meme, taken from two examples of conquering nomadic peoples, but I'm not sure it's so readily applicable to the Koreans. They were already known for taking Chinese culture and running it even further than the Chinese were, creating a society even more Confucian than China was. If millenia of slow diffusion weren't able to assimilate the Koreans into China, I don't think a Korean dynasty with the Mandate of Heaven would have a great much more effect. The geography and the settled nature of Korean society tells against it there.

 

[carlton_bach]

That is indeed the meme, taken from two examples of conquering nomadic peoples, but I'm not sure it's so readily applicable to the Koreans. They were already known for taking Chinese culture and running it even further than the Chinese were, creating a society even more Confucian than China was. If millenia of slow diffusion weren't able to assimilate the Koreans into China, I don't think a Korean dynasty with the Mandate of Heaven would have a great much more effect. The geography and the settled nature of Korean society tells against it there.

The Koreans *were* assimilated into China. The one thing that distinguished them from many, many other peoples of the Sinosphere is that they were in a tributary relationship outside the Empire rather than inside it. Other than that, they are as Chinese as a lot of the folk we nowadays call _minorities'. And that is still largely the case after many years of ethnic nation-state ideology.

A Korean conquest of China would not be a conquest by an alien people (except ASBs, maybe). It would be like the Welsh conquering England, give or take a doubr consonant or two.

 

[tormsen]

I think that's a bit of a stretch, and it rests somewhat upon semantics. Culturally are they "Chinese"? Sure, in a way, but they were always viewed as foreigners by the Chinese and never viewed themselves as part of China.

Then again, I'm not sure I entirely disagree with you, as I see the merit in your Welsh conquering England analogy. I just look at it differently.

 

[Neroon]

Korea has a seperate national identidy, for the simple reason that it wasn't a vassal until the 2nd millenium and spent a lot of time fighting China to maintain it's independece in the 1st. This sort of thing tends to have a lasting effect in the national consciousness. It would be like the Welsh successfully resisting the English for a 1000 years before submitting to something like Dominion status.

 

[xchen08]

That is indeed the meme, taken from two examples of conquering nomadic peoples, but I'm not sure it's so readily applicable to the Koreans. They were already known for taking Chinese culture and running it even further than the Chinese were, creating a society even more Confucian than China was. If millenia of slow diffusion weren't able to assimilate the Koreans into China, I don't think a Korean dynasty with the Mandate of Heaven would have a great much more effect. The geography and the settled nature of Korean society tells against it there.

Korea itself most likely would not assimilate (further), but the ruling house almost certainly would. You can't rule China from Korea, so the new Emperor is going to end up establishing his capital somewhere Chinese, surrounded by Chinese Ministers and Bureaucrats. The Manchus were hardly uncultured barbarians by the time they conquered China, and the Manchus proper didn't really assimilate until the 19th Century, but the Manchu Emperors definitively went native by the third generation.

 

[Snake Featherston]

Why is it that there are no timelines in which Korea ever has any importance? Is it guaranteed to be dominated completely by Japan and China?

Same reason that there's seldom a TL where a Jewish state in Palestine exists uninterrupted in some form......


.....

BAD location.....

 

[democracy101]

So here's my response.

I'm currently working on a timeline which specifically addresses this issue, so if you have some time on your hands, and are still wondering how Korea could manage to not be subjugated by either China or Japan, then go over to Korean Empire and check it out. Of course, people have been saying that it ignores a significant amount of butterflies, but that's besides the point, because the original question was about whether Korea was always bound to be dominated by other countries.

And I'm too lazy to retype what I did earlier, so look at this page if you want to know how Korea could have held off Japan in the Imjin wars in the late 1500's, and the two could have treated each other equally.

 

[counterblitzkrieg]

Why is it that there are no timelines in which Korea ever has any importance? Is it guaranteed to be dominated completely by Japan and China?

Well the thing is, Korea strategically had always been stuck between a rock and a hard place. Seriously, even now it was stuck between three major world powers; China, Japan, and Russia. Even Germany, a region rich with resources didn't become a strong power until late 1800s because it was stuck in between France, Austria, Russia, Denmark, and Britain for good measures. Neither one wanted a strong and united Germany.