KOREA RISING- Planning Thread

Expansion southward would mean Koreans need to gain Okinawa and Taiwan first before going to Philippinnes and then after, Eastern Indonesia.

That could be arranged. Just have Japan be crushed at the dawn of the Imjin War, and Korea will have a warlike attitude and a hell of a lot of warship and soldiers. That's where my arquebus idea comes in.

Also, Japan's going to need a bloody nose to keep it from meddling in Korea's overseas expansion. Again, my arquebus idea fits this.

So to get Korean Okinawa (and Ryukyu chain) is rather easy. As Korea grows in importance in Asia, it starts to rely on trade from Southeast Asia from the Kingdom of Ryukyu. Eventually, Korea decides to cut out the middleman, and invades. Japan would be a wildcard in this, but if the invasion of Ryukyu takes place in a small amount of time after the Imjin War.

For Taiwan, the colonization will be more eventual. A couple ports being started, and trade with the natives occuring, and eventual expansion over the whole island. From here Korea can jump to the Indies, where trade is booming. Maybe even eventual trade in India. The contact between Korean and European merchants there would be very interesting....
 
Korean conquest of N. China before the modern era probably ends with the tail wagging the dog: Koreans in the role of Manchus - although there's enough of them that their homeland avoids later Chinese colonization - and Korea gets sufficiently bogged down in Chinese affairs that it doesn't get into overseas ventures.

Perhaps a Korean-Ming alliance vs the Manchu, with the Korean gunpowder armies later taking over (and colonizing) Manchuria?

Bruce
 
Korean conquest of N. China before the modern era probably ends with the tail wagging the dog: Koreans in the role of Manchus - although there's enough of them that their homeland avoids later Chinese colonization - and Korea gets sufficiently bogged down in Chinese affairs that it doesn't get into overseas ventures.

Perhaps a Korean-Ming alliance vs the Manchu, with the Korean gunpowder armies later taking over (and colonizing) Manchuria?

Bruce

I don't think that Korea keeping most of China will really help them become a colonial power. True, they'd be very tied up.

Maybe Korea starting settler colonies in the Amur basin and Ainu Hokkaido. If Korea must expand north, China's not the best option.
 

Rockingham

Banned
Thankyou everybody for your input....

Based on the ideas put forth, and research into the the Korean and Japanese military vis-a-vis China, I have come to the conclusion that their overunning of China, while not impossible, is unlikely. It would need to occur over time, as did the rise of every lasting great power.

My original idea was to sow the seeds for Korean supremacy in a single war-the Imjin war. I have come to see that as unlikely-not the least because Manchurian conquest would thrust the problem of the Manchus on the Koreans, rather then the Chineses.......

In my view, the simple destruction of the Japanese forces and devestation of Chinese forces would leave a significant opening. The Koreans need not conquer even the Liaodong peninsula.....it seems that naval expansion would be the way to go in the early stages. Siezing Taiwan and the Ryukuku's alone ought to be enough in the early stages. It should be noted that Korea would then have both a significant population and agricultural surplus relative to OTL....and the little ice age was coming.... With a significantly larger population, mightn't the "ice age" encourage Korean settlement in (thinly populated) Taiwan? As well as perhaps the east bank of the Amur.....

Following the Imjin war, and adopting a colonial emphasis, Korea should have continued its naval expansion. Backing vassal Ainu and Manchu states may well have been the way to go.....

The foremost problem of not, though, was the Joseon's Confucian ideology. This was to encourage farming over external trade, even before the Imjin war...which lessens their industrial potential. So perhaps an otherthrow of the Joseons by some ambitious general needs to be worked in.

Work in a warring states period if possible in China, and Koreas position should be secure....



Site to look at http://www.koreanhistoryproject.org/Ket/C12/E1203.htm

I think that AHF and Rockingham are correct in saying that all you have to do is come out of the [1592] war with a veiwpoint of Mordernizing while japan and China attemp to slip into Isolation.

A active Korea would affect the China/Russia treaty of 1642, over the Chinese Maritimes

[Korea takes Amur???]

The Mountians on the South side of the Yalu continue on the northside, and they are peopled by Koreans extenting north to the Amur region,

I think 1600 is to late for Korea to get any American Colonies, but this is the perfect time to get control of the Amur region.
A Korea entering the mid 1800's Industrial era. controling the entire coast from the Yellow sea to the Sea of Okhotsk, including Sahalikin Island, along with Tiawin and Okinawa, would be a Asian powerhouse.
Hmmm.....in regards to the Amur region, are their any resources their worth exploiting though? Sakhalin and Manchuria I know to have oil, but thats pretty far in the future.

But yes, that scenario sounds both ideal and plausible.

How are American colonies implausible? Russia didn't establish a colony OTL until 1784......
Ummm.... I might make maps. It sounds pretty cool, but I don't know much about the area.
If your maps in 5500 years are anything to go by, that would be welcome;)


Back on topic... could the Koreans have expanded into the Amur region and possibly Ainu Hokkaido or Kamchatka? They certainly had the navy for it, and Japan and China wouldn't be able to do much about it. If Korea has Kamchatka, then they could colonize Alaska for the fur trade, but that's a bit of a gamble. I personally think that if Korea must become a colonial power, it will probably colonize more profitable and easily accessible places like the Indies and SE Asia.
How would it be a gamble? They are close enough for easy access, and AFAIK theres some fairly fertile fishing grounds their as well....

The SE Asian territories are difficult, what motive is their? They are populated enough to be difficult as settler colonies; their is little market for their good in East Asia, and they are difficult to defend from the ascendant Dutch. The best strategy would be for them to levy a tax on the DEIC in exchange for permitting them to trade through the colonies, but they'd be likely to lose them rather soon to the Dutch.
Expansion southward would mean Koreans need to gain Okinawa and Taiwan first before going to Philippinnes and then after, Eastern Indonesia.
Korea only needs the Phillipines in my opinion, taking more just puts them into conflict with the Dutch(possible allies)

That could be arranged. Just have Japan be crushed at the dawn of the Imjin War, and Korea will have a warlike attitude and a hell of a lot of warship and soldiers. That's where my arquebus idea comes in.

Also, Japan's going to need a bloody nose to keep it from meddling in Korea's overseas expansion. Again, my arquebus idea fits this.

So to get Korean Okinawa (and Ryukyu chain) is rather easy. As Korea grows in importance in Asia, it starts to rely on trade from Southeast Asia from the Kingdom of Ryukyu. Eventually, Korea decides to cut out the middleman, and invades. Japan would be a wildcard in this, but if the invasion of Ryukyu takes place in a small amount of time after the Imjin War.

For Taiwan, the colonization will be more eventual. A couple ports being started, and trade with the natives occuring, and eventual expansion over the whole island. From here Korea can jump to the Indies, where trade is booming. Maybe even eventual trade in India. The contact between Korean and European merchants there would be very interesting....

Would not Taiwan be relatively easy to capture? With Korea's superior navy?
 
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In my view, the simple destruction of the Japanese forces and devestation of Chinese forces would leave a significant opening. The Koreans need not conquer even the Liaodong peninsula.....it seems that naval expansion would be the way to go in the early stages. Siezing Taiwan and the Ryukuku's alone ought to be enough in the early stages. It should be noted that Korea would then have both a significant population and agricultural surplus relative to OTL....and the little ice age was coming.... With a significantly larger population, mightn't the "ice age" encourage Korean settlement in (thinly populated) Taiwan? As well as perhaps the east bank of the Amur.....
Sounds like a great idea to me. I would think that Taiwan would be not impossible to Koreanize, and would allow you to ?double? the population relatively quickly.
One of the things I found very interesting about the Japanese occupation of Taiwan OTL was how the placenames were recognizably the same. Presumably, and I am most certainly no expert, the ideographs of the place names were kept and the 'chinese readings' of those ideographs read as Japanese Kanji were recognizably close to the chinese readings of the same characters in whatever dialect was being used (Hakka? Hoklo?).

I don't know if Korean has the same 'chinese' / 'native' readings for ideographs that Japanese does. Nor do I know how many Chinese actually live on Taiwan at this point (I do know the settlement is recent in Chinese terms), but having recognizable placenames, etc., might help the process of conversion.
 
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Rockingham

Banned
Sounds like a great idea to me. I would think that Taiwan would be not impossible to Koreanize, and would allow you to ?double? the population relatively quickly.
One of the things I found very interesting about the Japanese occupation of Taiwan OTL was how the placenames were recognizably the same. Presumably, and I am most certainly no expert, the ideographs of the place names were kept and the 'chinese readings' of those ideographs read as Japanese Kanji were recognizably close to the chinese readings of the same characters in whatever dialect was being used (Hakka? Hoklo?).

I don't know if Korean has the same 'chinese' / 'native' readings for ideographs that Japanese does. Nor do I know how many Chinese actually live on Taiwan at this point (I do know the settlement is recent in Chinese terms), but having recognizable placenames, etc., might help the process of conversion.

I really have absolutely no understanding of East Asian languages....

On of the reasons I started this thread;)
 
about Alaska
How would it be a gamble? They are close enough for easy access, and AFAIK theres some fairly fertile fishing grounds their as well....
The further you have to sail, the more likely to lose ships. I think the original thought may have been, why do the more dangerous trip to Alaska when you can get in closer Kamchatka (e.g. furs) anything you could get there. (Of course I could be putting words in AHF's mouth.) Fishing might make it worthwhile, I don't know.

The SE Asian territories are difficult, what motive is their? They are populated enough to be difficult as settler colonies; their is little market for their good in East Asia, and they are difficult to defend from the ascendant Dutch. The best strategy would be for them to levy a tax on the DEIC in exchange for permitting them to trade through the colonies, but they'd be likely to lose them rather soon to the Dutch.

Korea only needs the Phillipines in my opinion, taking more just puts them into conflict with the Dutch(possible allies)
Agreed. Once they have Taiwan as a solid base, the Philippines would be a logical next step, and allow much greater growth and power.

Would not Taiwan be relatively easy to capture? With Korea's superior navy?
I would think so, surely.


Then perhaps, once Taiwan and e.g. the Philippines are under her belt (and doubling/tripling her population and strength), Korea could settle the old feud with Japan, and control all the East Asian archipelagos...
 

Rockingham

Banned
The further you have to sail, the more likely to lose ships. I think the original thought may have been, why do the more dangerous trip to Alaska when you can get in closer Kamchatka (e.g. furs) anything you could get there. (Of course I could be putting words in AHF's mouth.) Fishing might make it worthwhile, I don't know.


Agreed. Once they have Taiwan as a solid base, the Philippines would be a logical next step, and allow much greater growth and power.


I would think so, surely.


Then perhaps, once Taiwan and e.g. the Philippines are under her belt (and doubling/tripling her population and strength), Korea could settle the old feud with Japan, and control all the East Asian archipelagos...

Japanese conquest would be tiring for Korea, and relatively worthless...plus lest interesting;). I personally favour a Japanese(inferior) colonial power at the same time. Much like Britain never took all of France's colonies despite numerous victories.
 
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Japanese conquest would be tiring for Korea, and relatively worthless...plus lest interesting;). I personally favour a Japanese(inferior) colonial power at the same time. Much like Britain never took all of France's colonies despite numerous victories.

Well, Japan was hellbent on isolation from pretty much the defeat in the Imjin War onwards... Maybe have a 'Meiji Restoration' a few decades after going into isolation. I could see this... A trading rival of Korea (maybe the Dutch or another European power) forcibly opens Japan to trade (on par OTL) and supplies Japan with more modern technology and weapons to bother the Koreans. This backfires, and Japan jumps in on the colonization game, maybe getting in on the fur trade in Siberia or NW North America.
 
Hmmm.....in regards to the Amur region, are their any resources their worth exploiting though? Sakhalin and Manchuria I know to have oil, but thats pretty far in the future.
Gold, Iron, Coal, talc, phosphate, sulfur pyrites, and salts. Then when the 1900's & Hydro Electric arrives, extensive Bauxite deposits.
As for your Fur trade, that is why Japan & Russia fought over Sahalikin Island in the 1800's
 
Gold, Iron, Coal, talc, phosphate, sulfur pyrites, and salts. Then when the 1900's & Hydro Electric arrives, extensive Bauxite deposits.
As for your Fur trade, that is why Japan & Russia fought over Sahalikin Island in the 1800's

It was mainly the Iron and furs that I think the Koreans would want. With Iron, they'd have a reliable source of weapon material, and the fur trade was really profitable.

The Kamchatka peninsula is covered in dormant volcanoes and a couple active ones, and it's a great source of the ingredients for gunpowder. By controlling Sakhalin, the Amur region, and Kamchatka, Korea has a huge supply of resources at its command, and an army could be equipped quickly in case one of Korea's neighbors mess with it.
 
Korean uses the Hangul alphabet which is actually a syllabary. I'm not sure when they switched from using Hanzi (Chinese characters).

Hangul invented 1440's, ideographs still used today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul#History said:
History


A page from the Hunmin Jeong-eum. The Hangul-only column, fourth from left, ([FONT=&#51008]나랏말ᄊᆞ미[/FONT]), has pitch-accent diacritics to the left of the syllable blocks.



Hangul was promulgated by the fourth king of the Joseon Dynasty, Sejong the Great. The Hall of Worthies is often credited for the work, but records show that his staff of scholars denounced the king for not having consulted with them. King Sejong may have worked in secret, possibly with other members of the royal family, because of the opposition by the educated elite.
The project was completed in late 1443 or early 1444, and published in 1446 in a document titled Hunmin Jeongeum ("The Proper Sounds for the Education of the People"), after which the alphabet itself was named. The publication date of the Hunmin Jeong-eum, October 9, became Hangul Day in South Korea. Its North Korean equivalent is on January 15.
Various speculations about the creation process was put to rest by the discovery in 1940 of the 1446 Hunmin Jeong-eum Haerye ("Hunmin Jeong-eum Explanation and Examples"). This document explains the design of the consonant letters according to articulatory phonetics and the vowel letters according to the principles of yin and yang and vowel harmony.
King Sejong explained that he created the new script because the Korean language was different from Chinese; using Chinese characters (known as Hanja) to write was so difficult for the common people that only the male aristocrats (yangban) could read and write fluently. (A few female members of the royal family could also do so to a certain extent). The majority of Koreans were effectively illiterate before Hangul's invention.
Hangul was designed so that even a commoner could learn to read and write; the Haerye says "A wise man can acquaint himself with them before the morning is over; a stupid man can learn them in the space of ten days."[3]
Hangul faced heavy opposition by the literate elite, such as Choe Manri and other Confucian scholars in the 1440s, who believed hanja to be the only legitimate writing system. Later rulers too became hostile to Hangul. Yeonsangun, the 10th king, forbade the study or use of Hangul and banned Hangul documents in 1504, and King Jungjong abolished the Ministry of Eonmun in 1506. Even before these official actions, Hangul had been principally used by women and the undereducated.
The 16th century saw a revival of Hangul, with gasa literature and later sijo flourishing. In the 17th century, Hangul novels became a major genre. [4]
Due to growing Korean nationalism in the 19th century, Japan's attempt to sever Korea from China's sphere of influence, and the Gabo Reformists' push, Hangul was eventually adopted in official documents for the first time in 1894. Elementary school texts began using Hangul in 1895, and the Dongnip Sinmun, established in 1896, was one of the first newspapers printed exclusively in Hangul.[5]
After Korea was annexed by Japan in 1910, Hangul was initially taught in Japanese-established schools,[6] and Korean was written in a mixed Hanja-Hangul script, where most lexical roots were written in Hanja and grammatical forms in Hangul. However, the Korean language was banned from schools in 1938 as part of a policy of cultural assimilation,[7] and all Korean-language publications were outlawed in 1941.[8]
Hangul orthography was standardized by an academic group led by Ju Sigyeong in publications such as the Standardized System of Hangul in 1933, and a system for transliterating foreign orthographies was published in 1940.
Since regaining independence from Japan in 1945, the Koreas have used Hangul or mixed Hangul as their sole official writing system, with ever-decreasing use of hanja. Since the 1950s, it has become uncommon to find hanja in commercial or unofficial writing in the South, with some South Korean newspaper only using hanja as abbreviations or disambiguation of homonyms. There has been widespread debate as to the future of Hanja in South Korea, and the number of characters taught in schools has fallen from ? in 1956 to 1,800 in the 1990s. North Korea reinstated Hangul as its exclusive writing system in 1949, and banned the use of Hanja completely.
 
What about a Korean controlled Hong Kong/Macau? It sounds weird at first, but let us assume that the Manchu invasion is slightly less succesful due to uber-Korean intervention, and southern China is still under Ming control. Ming China will be isolationist, if OTL is anything to judges by, and the Koreans will only be too happy to have a foothold in China to transfer trade from. They could reap the profits from trading Chinese goods and materials to European traders.
 

Rockingham

Banned
What about a Korean controlled Hong Kong/Macau? It sounds weird at first, but let us assume that the Manchu invasion is slightly less succesful due to uber-Korean intervention, and southern China is still under Ming control. Ming China will be isolationist, if OTL is anything to judges by, and the Koreans will only be too happy to have a foothold in China to transfer trade from. They could reap the profits from trading Chinese goods and materials to European traders.
Hmmm....... Yes, theirs quite a few avenues they could take.....which is kind of delaying the TL....

Might be able to post the first part of the TL before the New year...although with Christmas and co. coming up, this is somewhat unlikely.
 
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