KNIL better equipped, trained, led by 1941/42

[Markus]

I understand that it was illegal to post continental Dutch troops to Indonesia. I find that silly.

I´m pretty sure that refered to conscripts only. France had similar laws. Comes with democracy.

But now that I think of it, I wonder if an additional 6 or eight cruisers of modern construction ( and twice the number of DDs) with two of the Dutch battle cruisers (based on the German designs) would have made a real difference.

Wow! That many extra CL -even small 8,000tons ships- would be quite a fleet and unlike the BC would have been very lightly armoured. Even an old 12ich BB would have pwned them. IMO not worth the money.

How about an earlier POD? The Dutch did have plans to order BCs from Germany around 1914, but of course the war got in the way.

? I thought they ordered the Java-class CL from Germany.

That's the thing, though! You can produce as many as you want, but the Netherlands simply doesn't have the manpower or training facilities to support a defence against an equal number of Zeroes. You need external manpower. Brits and Yanks.

He, he, he! I dare say Japan can´t make enough Zeros to match dutch fighters on a 1on1 basis. The Zero and the Oscar were brand new and thus very scarce. 25 and 90 vs the british and dutch air forces and another 90 Zeros to deal with the USAAF on the PI. Numerically the allies had an edge.

 

[Richard Stanbery]

KNIL holding out in 1942...

Markus is right about aircraft production. The Dutch could have easily outproduced the Japanese in any, or all, types of warplanes, but only if the go ahead were given in pleanty of time mid -30s...

As to money for rearmament, well, the Dutch had sliced the military to the bone by the early 1930s, and there had even been talk of doing away with an army altogether. The League of Nations would be thier defenders!
But, the money was there all along. When the Dutch leaders finally smelled the fart and decided to appropriate large ammounts of money for defense, they had no trouble finding the money. But by then it was too late. So, a mid-1930s rearmament scenario is not absurd, it could have been done.

The Dutch govt had the money for public works programs and such. In the late 1930s, the Dutch started placing orders in large scale for everything from artillery to ships, etc. But as the rest of Europe was already rearming, the orders could not be filled. Most of the arms producers were producing for thier own nations militaries, and so the Dutch found themselves in the stupid position of finally having a lot of $$$ to spend, but nothing to spend it on. OOOOOPs!

 

[FlyingDutchman]

? I thought they ordered the Java-class CL from Germany.

Designed in Germany, built in the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken.

I love naval AH. But it is pretty ASB for the dutch battlecruisers to be built, which too bad for them facing off with the Kongo's would be fun. Now of course they most likely would have been lost to Japanese air power, but still makes a fun scenario. Even better would be a Dutch carrier somehow...

There's not much use building BCs, the Japanese have a lot of battleships, although not exactly brandnew, would easily pummel anything the Dutch have early '42.
Only use would be as a sort of fleet in being, to force the Japanese to keep a few battleships in the DEI, but those BC's are going to start falling apart when they lose their logistical tail when the Dutch continent is lost and then the DEI themselves.

I doubt the Allies are going to dedicate sparse yard time to the ships from a small ally unless there's an advantage in for them.

After all, 'met grote heren is het slecht kersen eten' as we've unfortunately learned.

I also thought that the DEI strategically were indefensible as soon as Singapore fell? In that case you'd also need Singapore to be held by the Brits.

 

[Jukra]

Do the Dutch sit around and wait to be invaded? Or do they become proactive? How to play this out?

While better defense of NEI would bring benefits to defeat of Japan, the following question might be asked: What's there to gain if the Dutch invest more to defenses of NEI? Does Germany not invade the Netherlands?

I think a proactive Netherlands would ally clearly with Great Britain and France and thus direct all additional defense spending to the defense of Netherlands, where the right-colored (note: I'm trying to imagine 1930's era way of thinking, not my own way of thinking), right language speaking subjects of the Netherlands live.

With contemporary Finnish level of defense investment to defense of the Netherlands (Finland had same amount of GDP per capita and half of the population) the Netherlands would probably be able to face the German invasion threat in 1940, which would bring far more benefits for white, Dutch speaking Dutch population which is probably the population Dutch government thinks about. Moreover, just like what happened in late 1940's, a free Netherlands is able to send a large expeditionary force to NEI while a more powerful NEI is not likely to able to send a significant expeditionary force to Dutch mainland.

 

[Jukra]

Wow! That many extra CL -even small 8,000tons ships- would be quite a fleet and unlike the BC would have been very lightly armoured. Even an old 12ich BB would have pwned them. IMO not worth the money.

Ship-versus-ship in ideal conditions or with radar, maybe, but how about two-three fast 8000 tonners with rapid-firing artillery (Bofors 152mm scheduled for De Zeven Prövincien had ROF of 10-15 shots per barrel per minute) and making a torpedo attack? IMHO, although naval experts may well be disagreeing I think battleship level artillery was totally overrated even for surface fights during the Second World War.

 

[Markus]

Designed in Germany, built in the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken.

You are not! IRC some German assistance was excpected, hence the delay.

unlike the BC would have been very lightly armoured. Even an old 12ich BB would have pwned them. IMO not worth the money.

Forget that! I meant the BC would be too lightly armoured to get past the oldest BB of the IJN. At several million $ per ship the money would be better spend on more airplanes and light cruisers/destroyers. I would not recommend sending several CL against a BB and its screen unless the CL have effective air support(dive bombers).

I also thought that the DEI strategically were indefensible as soon as Singapore fell? In that case you'd also need Singapore to be held by the Brits.

Wasn´t that the other way round? Malaya is east of Sumatra, so if Sumatra falls Singapore is cut off.


@Richard Stanbery: The rest of Europe had the same problems particulary in regard to warplanes. Manufacturers were swamped with orders.


And last but not leaset I was wrong about the number of Oscars in Indochina. The IJA had 68, not 90+.

 

[Richard Stanbery]

KNIL holding out in 1942...

I think that if we see a military build up in Holland during the 1930s, then the skull-duggery would have certainly have had to follow. Certain backdoor alliances with friends in various nations may have ensued.

I see a time where out of power British and French Hawks, like Churchill, meet in some English manor house between the wars, in order to come to certain understandings. In these unofficial, and un-condoned meetings by the regimes in power (who wouldnt want to provoke Hitler), the outcasts of power, such as Churchill, would meet with the unofficial representatives of other nations, such as Holland and the USA.

In these unofficial meetings, there might be a consensus reached. Here, the reality would no doubt manifest itself that Holland cannot be held. But, Holland can go on and fight with a government in exile. And so here, the defense of the NEI would be discussed.

It has much to defend. It is close to Malaya, a possible base for the raiding of the Australian shipping routes by IJN subs, and NEI has oil, a vital war resource.

And so, if we see the unofficial hawks of these shadow governments having these meetings (not far fetched,historically) then the idea comes that Holland must fight on after the expected German invasion. The NEI must be defended, as well as other parts of the Dutch empire that have vital resources.

In fact, more than half the bauxite that the US used to build warplanes came from Suriname (Dutch Guiyana). And so, Holland is a vital partner here in any clandestine meetings with the out of power hawk factions of Western Europe.

And since the bad guy was Hitler...maybe other groups or nations send thier representatives to these meetings.

And hey, while we are in an alternative history swing, we could make these meetings interesting to ponder by asking what the Germans would think about them?

I can see it now...big old 1930s automobiles with big headlights and garrish hood ornaments touring across the English countryside towards some Tudor mannor house for the meeting.

The King (pro-German, flinging with an American divorcee) may have agents following, as do the Germans, and others such as NKVD.

These things could get interesting!

But, back to my original point before I sidetracked into fanciful imagination...

If Holland would have been led by more militaristic leaders in the 1930s, then there would have been some attempt to come to certain understandings with the possible allied nations who were waking up to the threat of Hitler. Common strategies would be developed, and the realization accepted that Holland cannot defend itself from Germany, but will fight on from exile.